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Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#41

Post by tartuffe78 »

flerchin wrote: post #37
itsoktocry wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

The best airline pilot lands the plane the same as the worst.

With a few notable outliers...

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#42

Post by digitalsushi »

flerchin wrote: post #37
itsoktocry wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

The best airline pilot lands the plane the same as the worst.

99.999% of the time I agree with you.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#43

Post by bazooka »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #17
badcppdev wrote: post #6

I guess the trouble is that we don't have any self-admitted exploited workers. Everyone is a temporarily embarrassed Founder/CTO. With thanks to Steinback - https://hellyesjohnsteinbeck.tumblr.com/post/23486952183/com...

At least in the US, the average software developer does eventually become a millionaire, working a pretty cushy job. If that is "exploitation" then most people would be like to be exploited like that.

Hot take. It’s also untrue. Software developers overall are not millionaires.

I am discounting non-liquid assets like the main residence.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#44

Post by alexb_ »

duxup wrote: post #39

I know European Union work quite differently than in the US. My experience with unions in the US like the teachers unions where conditions are still poor, pay is poor, and everything based on seniority rather than skill, you’re stuck with whatever the union negotiates regardless if you’re in the union or not …. I want nothing to do with that.

Public unions are a completely different beast than private unions.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#45

Post by pydry »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

Were you unaware that there is a writers strike on right now?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#46

Post by smfugit »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #5

Tech workers are usually so buried, heads hunched over the keyboard, focused on the latest project, that they aren't even aware they are being used. They straiten their back one day, look around, and realize they've been working for 20 years and getting nowhere. They got good enough raises, but forgot inflation, and it was really nothing.

The environment resembles more a circus or a zoo where the animals are trained/fed and kept in well designed (sometimes golden) cages.

Hard to expect such conditioning to generate the imagination required to reconstruct the environments.

New environments and the space for new ideas is only possible outside the circuses and the zoos.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#47

Post by jandrewrogers »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #5

Tech workers are usually so buried, heads hunched over the keyboard, focused on the latest project, that they aren't even aware they are being used. They straiten their back one day, look around, and realize they've been working for 20 years and getting nowhere. They got good enough raises, but forgot inflation, and it was really nothing.

> realize they've been working for 20 years and getting nowhere

How are you defining "getting nowhere"? At least in the US, the average software developer eventually becomes a millionaire working a pretty cushy job with good benefits. Most people in unions wish they could be exploited like software engineers.

Any bar set so high in defining worker exploitation that a software engineer can't clear the hurdle is not a constructive definition. If everyone is "exploited" then no one is.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#48

Post by AnimalMuppet »

kdmccormick wrote: post #19
infecto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what country? Software engineers have some incredible pay for pretty low effort in the last 15years. Even before that it was a pretty decent living for most of the time pretty non-unique software. We are talking about them as an exploited working class, wild to me.

IMHO our profession's adherence to ethics and technical standards is shockingly low compared to others. If a civil engineer was asked to build a bridge that will probably be unsafe, I think they and their colleagues would have the power to refuse (right?). If a software engineer is asked to ship a feature that's probably insecure then... IDK, gotta get it to prod, move fast and break things, right? I wonder if unioni…

A whole lot of software just supports a business, and a non-critical business at that. If my buggy software takes down, say, pets.com, well, first, the world won't end because pets.com is down for 8 hours, and second, pets.com wasn't going to succeed even if my software was perfect. That kind of software isn't like building a bridge; it's more like building a birdhouse. Nobody's going to die if it collapses. (OK, a bird might.)

Some software is critical. Safety critical, or running critical financial processes, handling medical info, and so on. That software does have technical standards.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#49

Post by duxup »

alexb_ wrote: post #44
duxup wrote: post #39

I know European Union work quite differently than in the US. My experience with unions in the US like the teachers unions where conditions are still poor, pay is poor, and everything based on seniority rather than skill, you’re stuck with whatever the union negotiates regardless if you’re in the union or not …. I want nothing to do with that.

Public unions are a completely different beast than private unions.

Is there a good example I should know about?
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