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The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (2022)

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Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (2022)

#251

Post by pvg »

fragmede wrote: post #183
tptacek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way did it backfire? It's a useful decongestant. But it also basically is methamphetamine, with just a couple easily-reversible Rubik's turns to make it a decongestant instead of an ultra-powerful stimulant.

Water, consisting of hydrogen "basically is" and explosive, as is table salt, consisting of Sodium, which explodes when coming into contact with water. How can we let these two dangerous substances go unregulated! Think of the children! who will get to have interesting high school chemistry labs, that is. That Sudafed "basically is" meth misunderstands chemistry, and the resourcefulness of the real life Walter Whites…

table salt, consisting of Sodium

The difference between a Sodium ion and a Sodium atom is one of the profoundest in chemistry and a fundamental topic of its high school version.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (2022)

#252

Post by jmprspret »

wrs wrote: post #206

From the referenced paper: “Other examples of scientifically proven ineffective OTC medications include guaifenesin as an expectorant, dextromethorphan as a cough suppressant, and chlorpheniramine for cold symptoms.”

> dextromethorphan

Wow, seriously? I abused plenty of this to get high back in my day. And I can say that smoking while on it was definitely way easier, I barely coughed at all.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (2022)

#253

Post by lazide »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #217
tptacek wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But now it's produced in para-industrial labs, mostly in other countries, rather than in apartments and back yards, where those ad hoc labs were actually real public safety problems.

Isn't increased financing of major drug cartels a serious public safety problem? Weren't most pseudoephedrine-to-meth operations in rural areas or otherwise situated away from the general public to avoid detection?

Was Al Capone a public menace, or a businessman saving countless thousands from methanol poisoning and distilling accidents?

Plenty of these stories documented either way: https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/pittsburgh/news/police-erie-boy-...

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (2022)

#254

Post by lazide »

KerrAvon wrote: post #240
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of us cannot make these drugs ourselves. To restrict them effectively would certainly curtail their abuse?

It turns out it's not possible to do that. We've been trying since the 1960's.

Longer than that if you count one of the OG drugs - Alcohol

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (2022)

#255

Post by lazide »

jasonfarnon wrote: post #233
ohthehugemanate wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for this? > drug abuse being primarily being a function of the existence or lack of interpersonal involvement and responsibilities that would preclude spending time and money on them AFAIK there have always been addicts in every culture. Alcohol, various drugs, and strongly self destructive behaviors are not recent additions to the human experience. But I don't know any if the numbers or the rese…

"AFAIK there have always been addicts in every culture." Surely you would agree that there the proportion of addicts varies by culture and society, that the US for example has a much higher proportion than many poorer nations? I don't know about the first comment's claim that lack of interpersonal relationship is the root cause, but a strong social component looks obvious to me.

Cite? Every nation has an underbelly.

Poorer nations, those folks tend to die pretty fast though.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (2022)

#256

Post by toast0 »

tptacek wrote: post #201
cyberax wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meth is not harder to produce. It's now mass-produced from P2P, with chiral purification using various methods (like pulling one enantiomer with tartaric acid).

Yes. But now it's produced in para-industrial labs, mostly in other countries, rather than in apartments and back yards, where those ad hoc labs were actually real public safety problems.

> mostly in other countries

Another case of needless regulation driving outsourcing, and putting our small manufacturing business out of work.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (2022)

#257

Post by underlipton »

robocat wrote: post #219
underlipton wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "fundamental problem" is the breakdown of community (drug abuse being primarily being a function of the existence or lack of interpersonal involvement and responsibilities that would preclude spending time and money on them). People who are comfortable huddling in their cars, homes, and exclusive social clubs, and who would rather spend money on cops rather than social programs, aren't going to like the fix for t…

> social programs Do you have any links to social programs that have successfully dealt with meth addiction? Can't say I have seen any locally (New Zealand) and we are a country more likely to see such programs?

I don't, but I'll ask you to consider the following:

1) The implication of my statement wasn't that social programs would solve the problem single-handedly, but that they're more effective than enhanced law enforcement spending.

2) This would seem to be, at the very least, supported by the people who advocated for treating the (mostly white and middle-class) victims of the opioid epidemic in the US as suffering from a medical rather than criminal affliction.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (2022)

#258

Post by underlipton »

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #146
underlipton wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "fundamental problem" is the breakdown of community (drug abuse being primarily being a function of the existence or lack of interpersonal involvement and responsibilities that would preclude spending time and money on them). People who are comfortable huddling in their cars, homes, and exclusive social clubs, and who would rather spend money on cops rather than social programs, aren't going to like the fix for t…

Do you have a source for this? > drug abuse being primarily being a function of the existence or lack of interpersonal involvement and responsibilities that would preclude spending time and money on them AFAIK there have always been addicts in every culture. Alcohol, various drugs, and strongly self destructive behaviors are not recent additions to the human experience. But I don't know any if the numbers or the rese…

No, it's merely a personal observation. In that vein, I'd think it more correct to say that there are always addicts on the margin of every culture.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (2022)

#259

Post by lazide »

tptacek wrote: post #247
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only liberty being sacrificed here is showing an ID at a pharmacy counter to get Sudafed. It would be interesting to know if the people concerned about the need to show an ID to vote share that concern about the need to show an ID for access to medicine. > This particular "logbook" has existed for almost 2 decades now, and its scope hasn't creeped from there, so your second argument is pretty easy to shoot down…

You already need to show ID for most medicine! This is such a weird discussion.

Name an over the counter medicine you need to show ID for.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine (2022)

#260

Post by natechols »

tptacek wrote: post #247
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only liberty being sacrificed here is showing an ID at a pharmacy counter to get Sudafed. It would be interesting to know if the people concerned about the need to show an ID to vote share that concern about the need to show an ID for access to medicine. > This particular "logbook" has existed for almost 2 decades now, and its scope hasn't creeped from there, so your second argument is pretty easy to shoot down…

You already need to show ID for most medicine! This is such a weird discussion.

It's weird to me that we've completely normalized having to present ID to buy any medicine at all, especially one that has an excellent safety and efficacy record that I was buying without an ID for a decade. Why should I have to ask the government's permission to cure a runny nose?
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