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Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#81

Post by mocopoco »

Pet_Ant wrote: post #4
yrro wrote: post #2

Car size should be regulated and a maximum should be enforced. Pavement parking (and other antisocial forms of parking) should also be banned. In the UK, local authorities are in charge of parking enforcement. In Oxford they largely don't bother: I see vehicles parked on yellow lines every day. I can't fathom why, this is an opportunity to raise revenue!

An article shared recently said that road damage is weight^4. Make a car tax based on vehicle weight and the market takes care of itself. For the right classes (such as wheelchair accessible) it can be a tax write-off.

Yes let the rich have the big cars, us peasants will kneel to the taxes as always...

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#82

Post by Kon-Peki »

robnado wrote: post #79
hotpotamus wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the answer to this a minivan?

We are still deciding between an SUV and a minivan. What might make us choose the SUV is the ground clearance. Where we live there is a lot of snowfall in the winter, and the extra ground clearance can mean the difference between getting beached on packed snow or ice.

The article is talking about the size and weight of vehicles.

In this context, there is effectively no distinction between a modern minivan and a modern SUV.

1995 Honda Civic - curb weight of 2100 pounds.

2000 Ford Focus - curb weight of 2500 pounds.

2023 Toyota Corolla - curb weight of 3000-3100 pounds (depending on trim level).

2023 Toyota Sienna ("minivan") - curb weight of 4600-4700 pounds.

2023 Toyota Highlander (SUV) - curb weight of 4300-4500 pounds.

2023 Honda Odyssey ("minivan") - curb weight of 4500-4600 pounds.

2023 Honda Passport (SUV) - curb weight of 4200-4300 pounds.

2023 Honda Pilot (SUV) - curb weight of 4000-4700 pounds.

Anyway, the minivan is slightly heavier than the equivalent SUV - but close enough to not really matter.

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#83

Post by Pet_Ant »

mocopoco wrote: post #81
Pet_Ant wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An article shared recently said that road damage is weight^4. Make a car tax based on vehicle weight and the market takes care of itself. For the right classes (such as wheelchair accessible) it can be a tax write-off.

Yes let the rich have the big cars, us peasants will kneel to the taxes as always...

I mean, I'd rather no one have large cars and the need by addressed by business but that opens up loop-holes and other abuses. For those who are truly waste, let's at least get some other money for other uses. Both McMansions and pavement-boats are grostesque excesses... but policing morality never ends well so taxes are the gentler stick.

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#84

Post by Pet_Ant »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #15
Pet_Ant wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t address needlessly large EVs that damage roads and are a threat to pedestrians and bicyclists. These larger EVs are also inefficient use of battery cells than they’d be in smaller vehicles. Would love to see more Mini/Smart car EVs

A Tesla is heavier than a petrol Range Rover. All EVs are heavy.

The larger an EV is the less efficient it is because it has to carry the unloaded battery with it, and it needs more battery for the same function. I don't have the number but I would bet that the energy need is a square of the vehicle weight. It's the same problem rockets have where they have to expend fuel just to carry fuel.

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#85

Post by monooso »

eptcyka wrote: post #67
monooso wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean other cars in the same class? Either way, it undermines the statement that the increase in car size is primarily due to new legislation which makes it impossible to build a small, safe car.

No, I mean the car is crash tested against itself. And not against cars in the same class or a variety of cars that can be encountered on the road. I agree that small cars can be made to be safe nominally, but one cannot argue with the mass component of the kinetic energy equation. I say this as someone who drives a car that weighs slightly above a ton, and I'm well aware that I'd likely be on the losing end of any c…

Do you have a source for this?

I thought (assumed) the whole point of NCAP ratings was to compare the safety of different cars.

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#86

Post by therealchiggs »

DrScientist wrote: post #52
gertrunde wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article does discuss one of the main causes - safety. If you require various crumple/impact zones for safety reasons, which are usually all about controlling the impact deceleration over a longer period of time, i.e. less g-force on the occupants etc, then the relevant car parts get larger. Doors get thicker, front and back get extended etc. I suspect it would be quite difficult to walk back those changes, so it…

You can get an older reasonably sized car which has an NCAP rating of 5. Note bigger cars will have more mass and thus momentum & energy to dissipate, might be less nimble and certainly in the early days of SUV types were easier to roll.

It's worth noting that NCAP ratings aren't necessarily comparable over time. New tests are periodically introduced and they generally become more stringent[1].

A 5-star car from 2015 is likely to be significantly less safe than a 5-star car from 2023.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_NCAP#Rating_history

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#87

Post by yrro »

gertrunde wrote: post #42
yrro wrote: post #2

Car size should be regulated and a maximum should be enforced. Pavement parking (and other antisocial forms of parking) should also be banned. In the UK, local authorities are in charge of parking enforcement. In Oxford they largely don't bother: I see vehicles parked on yellow lines every day. I can't fathom why, this is an opportunity to raise revenue!

The article does discuss one of the main causes - safety. If you require various crumple/impact zones for safety reasons, which are usually all about controlling the impact deceleration over a longer period of time, i.e. less g-force on the occupants etc, then the relevant car parts get larger. Doors get thicker, front and back get extended etc. I suspect it would be quite difficult to walk back those changes, so it…

E = 1/2 m v^2

Drive slower and everyone is safer

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#88

Post by yrro »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #74
yrro wrote: post #2

Car size should be regulated and a maximum should be enforced. Pavement parking (and other antisocial forms of parking) should also be banned. In the UK, local authorities are in charge of parking enforcement. In Oxford they largely don't bother: I see vehicles parked on yellow lines every day. I can't fathom why, this is an opportunity to raise revenue!

>In Oxford they largely don't bother Funnily enough I saw a traffic warden issuing tickets in Oxford last week.

Was it by chance on August the 30th? That would have co-incideded with the ultra rare "blue supermoon". Next one is in 203x...

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#89

Post by Angostura »

rob74 wrote: post #9
Angostura wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK car tax is currently based on vehicle type- but it's based on CO2 emissions https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables typically this is related to weight/size - except in the case of electric vehicles which are heavier than their ICE counterparts

This (and tax subsidies) is the reason behind the proliferation of large plug-in-hybrid SUVs - being a plug-in hybrid lowers CO2 emissions (at least on paper), but in practice many/most owners will never actually charge the car, so the CO2 emissions will be even more unrealistic than they already are.

I'm not sure I have seen many large plug-in hybrids on UK roads

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#90

Post by Angostura »

jakub_g wrote: post #13
rob74 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This (and tax subsidies) is the reason behind the proliferation of large plug-in-hybrid SUVs - being a plug-in hybrid lowers CO2 emissions (at least on paper), but in practice many/most owners will never actually charge the car, so the CO2 emissions will be even more unrealistic than they already are.

Also, there was an article recently that (at least in US) the CO2 emission norms are not absolute but relative to car size; to the absurd point that to fit into the norms, it's easier to make the car bigger, rather than to lower the emissions of a smaller car. Hence, SUVs.

Absolute in the UK
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