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Credit card debt collection

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Re: Credit card debt collection

#141

Post by kioleanu »

turdprincess wrote: post #109
adev_ wrote: post #91

It might be a very European view to the problem but: Why does the American government does even tolerate this credit card garbage business in the first place ? We are in the 21th century. Most payment can be validated electronically and processed under 200ms. I can pay something with my phone and get money taken directly from my bank account within seconds. There is absolutely no need of Credit Cards where Debit Card…

On the other side, if you are privileged enough to be financially stable, in the USA it’s best to pay for every single thing with a credit card. Aside from the points and rewards, credit cards are much more likely to reverse fraud transactions. I’ve had banks deny fraud reports and demand police reports while credit cards always reverse the transaction no questions asked. Actually it’s best to not even have a debit c…

That is just another symptom of the problem I would say. Although it does happen, there are other mechanisms in place to protect you from fraud, which discourage fraud in the first place. I’ve been paying with debit cards for more than 15 years in Europe, tens of thousands of transactions and not once did I need to reverse one.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#142

Post by TheDong »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #117
adev_ wrote: post #91

It might be a very European view to the problem but: Why does the American government does even tolerate this credit card garbage business in the first place ? We are in the 21th century. Most payment can be validated electronically and processed under 200ms. I can pay something with my phone and get money taken directly from my bank account within seconds. There is absolutely no need of Credit Cards where Debit Card…

You conveniently left out the part where credit cards offer ... credit. Essentially quick loans upto a limit with zero collateral. If the govt. banned credit cards, you will then ask why poor people can't get credit. They will then go to payday loans and loan sharks. Remember, nobody forces you to use credit cards. Also, the US is also not the top country for either credit card usage or possession. Some European coun…

> credit cards offer credit. Essentially quick loans upto a limit with zero collateral

You say this like it is an unequivocal good, but I don't think it necessarily is. The world functioned before it was common to have instance frictionless access to a no-collateral high-rate loan.

Also, may I remind you these are for-profit loans, and the very article we're commenting under is about how they are disproportionately used to shake down poorer people.

I'm sure you can twist numbers in either way to say credit cards are net good or net bad for poor people, but it's not unquestionably good at the very least.

> Remember, nobody forces you to use credit cards.

Except two factors realistically do encourage you to. Merchants generally charge fixed prices regardless of whether you pay with credit/debit/cash. That price includes their expected credit card fee overhead, so because everyone else pays with a credit card, the price is higher. You pay that higher price whether you use a card or not, and only get the points/miles/cash back/whatever if you also use a credit card.

Secondly, credit scores force me to use a credit card. For some reason, private companies control my credit score, and my salary, savings, etc have no bearing on it.

Originally, I refused to use credit cards since I find them an unethical tool to transfer money from the poor to the rich, and so I had no credit score. When I went to rent an apartment, the landlord checked my credit score, and then could legally turn me away for not having one. Jobs I applied for checked my credit score, and could legally reject me.

I feel like the private credit agencies, and how widely credit scores are used, has in fact forced me to use a credit card, or else run the risk of each landlord running a credit check and then turning me away.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#143

Post by atoav »

metacritic12 wrote: post #130
benjaminwootton wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the vast majority of people use credit cards without messing up their lives? I suspect most people don’t even need them but use them for cash back and consumer protection. For people who do need them, there’s nothing inherently wrong with buying something and spreading the cost or paying for it later in return for paying some interest. Most people who do that won’t get into any trouble. There are a hundred le…

Funny enough, Europe has indeed banned various degrees of the top items on your list. Generally Europe more paternalistic and Europeans like it that way. Americans are less so, and like it that way.

Guns and alcohol banned in Europe? That will surprise my hunting, schnaps-drinking grandfather. My gun-smithing hometown and the people at the Glock factory will be shocked.

I will need to tell them.

Jokes aside: guns are regulated where I am from, they are not banned. That means you have to have a weapons license and store guns properly. That license can be revoked and the guns taken if you have shown to be not mature enough to carry them, by e.g. threatening people or acting unresponsibly with guns. Xertain guns require special permits or expertise to be handled. And if you wanna shoot with LMGs, enter the military. Sounds reasonable right?

And alcohol? Legally we are allowed to drink beer at 16, hard alcohol at 18 — how is it at your place?

Re: Credit card debt collection

#144

Post by philwelch »

owenmarshall wrote: post #64
dylan604 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never heard of buying credit debt, but I had heard of people buying medical debt in this manner. I get and respect the medical debt concept. Credit debt though is a tough one. How can you tell that someone ran up credit debt because they were paying for medical bills or something vs debt financing shopping sprees or vacations? Giving those who fall on hard times help is admirable. Giving people bad at personal fina…

This strikes me as the same as saying “but the homeless person might take my $5 to buy whiskey instead of a hot meal.” Or, possibly more apropos to your example, “how do I know my medical debt relief payment goes to someone who truly Deserves It because of bad luck and not someone whose poor diet and exercise habits lead to their stroke?” The system is designed to turn bad choices into bad luck - and the opposite - a…

> This strikes me as the same as saying “but the homeless person might take my $5 to buy whiskey instead of a hot meal.”

Which is still a valid point. Don’t give cash to homeless people.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#145

Post by piperswe »

kioleanu wrote: post #141
turdprincess wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other side, if you are privileged enough to be financially stable, in the USA it’s best to pay for every single thing with a credit card. Aside from the points and rewards, credit cards are much more likely to reverse fraud transactions. I’ve had banks deny fraud reports and demand police reports while credit cards always reverse the transaction no questions asked. Actually it’s best to not even have a debit c…

That is just another symptom of the problem I would say. Although it does happen, there are other mechanisms in place to protect you from fraud, which discourage fraud in the first place. I’ve been paying with debit cards for more than 15 years in Europe, tens of thousands of transactions and not once did I need to reverse one.

The only time I've ever had to dispute a charge is when I bought something from a website that had apparently gone out of business without taking down their site. Weeks passed after my order, I reached out multiple times, and I never heard a peep from them. I just logged in to my Chase account, disputed it, got my money back instantly, then went on with my life.

That doesn't sound like something that's super easy to prevent.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#146

Post by spelunker »

bradleybuda wrote: post #113
tptacek wrote: post #28

There's a point in this article where Patrick suggests you Google "litigious debtor scrub" to confirm a point he's making, and when you get to that point --- not before --- I highly recommend doing the search and reading some of the links, because they're pretty funny.

Amazing: https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.guidebook.com/upload/z5nhuRkp...

That was great. Facebook?!?!?!?!?

Re: Credit card debt collection

#147

Post by eru »

scatters wrote: post #120
eru wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really make consumption easier. In any case, you can just print more money, if people in the economy aren't spending enough. (In more formal terms: the central bank can control nominal gross domestic products.)

Yes, but instead of consumption, that alternative money would be biased towards investment or even less productive activities, such as house price speculation. Consumer credit creates money where it has the greatest benefit.

> [...] that alternative money would be biased towards investment or even less productive activities, such as house price speculation.

How is that supposed to work? When the central bank injects money into the economy, they don't earmark it to be only spend in specific ways.

Just to forestall one pseudo-explanation: yes, a central bank usually injects money into the economy by buying government bonds. However (a) they buy the bonds at market prices and (b) the whole process is very well known and announced in advance, so market participants can and will anticipate what is happening. Money in the economy does not act on 'hydraulic' principles where it has an effect first on where it enters the economy and then slowly works its way through.

As a hypothetical: assume that the US Fed credibly announces today in 2023 that in 2030 they are going to keep printing money until American Dollar and the Japanese Yen are at par. (At the moment, 1 USD buys about 147 Yen.)

You can bet your hat that prices in the US would react long before 2030 has arrived, and thus long before any of that new money had been printed and had any chance to slowly work its way through the economy. Nothing special would happen on 2030-01-01 when the money-printing starts, because everything would have long been priced in already for years.

The economy in general, and monetary policy specifically, is all about expectations and anticipation.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#148

Post by eru »

tourmalinetaco wrote: post #123
eru wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really make consumption easier. In any case, you can just print more money, if people in the economy aren't spending enough. (In more formal terms: the central bank can control nominal gross domestic products.)

The Federal Reserve already overprints, that’s one reasonwhy the USD and almost every other major currency is currently struggling. Printing more money during high inflation only worsens the problems.

Maybe. But in that case, adding more consumer spending via consumer credit would be a negative, not a positive?

(Only money that's actually being actively spent makes a difference. If the Fed prints oodles of money but buries it in their backyard, it would have no impact on inflation.)

Re: Credit card debt collection

#149

Post by [deleted] »

eru wrote: post #36

> I will bet you that, in practice, they simply avoid collecting against anyone who demonstrates ability and financial resources to enforce their rights. This is one for the history books of borked equilibriums. We devoted substantial efforts to pro-consumer legislation to address abuse of (mostly) poor people. We gated redress behind labor that is abundantly available in the professional managerial class and scarce…

[deleted]

Re: Credit card debt collection

#150

Post by eru »

acyou wrote: post #97
eru wrote: post #36

> I will bet you that, in practice, they simply avoid collecting against anyone who demonstrates ability and financial resources to enforce their rights. This is one for the history books of borked equilibriums. We devoted substantial efforts to pro-consumer legislation to address abuse of (mostly) poor people. We gated redress behind labor that is abundantly available in the professional managerial class and scarce…

Singapore has many systems, rules and laws that would not and could not work elsewhere. It's great that it works for them, but it doesn't work in the USA, or most other countries. I will point out that they are an affluent, monocultural, somewhat xenophobic, authoritarian and borderline fascist city-state.

Singapore has only recently become affluent, mostly thanks to hard work by the locals, but also partially thanks to policies that did not discourage people from putting in that hard work.

I'm not sure what you mean by monocultural? Singapore is famously multicultural.

Singapore is very open to foreigners. Almost no one's family has been here for longer than three or four generations. I'm not sure where you get xenophobic from? (However, they do like some foreigners more than others. Just like in the rest of the world, people who came from affluent places to spend money are typically the most welcome visitors.)

Authoritarian might be true, depending on your definition of the world. To call them 'borderline fascist' you'd need a rather torturous definition of fascism (or a generous definition of borderline).

Yes, Singapore is a city-state. For comparison, Berlin and Hamburg are also city states in the federal system of Germany and enjoy considerable autonomy, but with less success. I agree that more cities should become independent and be better run as city-states. London would be an interesting candidate.

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