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Covid patients breathe out large amounts of virus early on

news.northwestern.edu

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Re: Covid patients breathe out large amounts of virus early on

#41

Post by thunkle »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #20
mcpackieh wrote: post #7

I know a guy who still wears a half-face respirator every time he's in public even for just a second. I think at this rate he'll be wearing it for the rest of his life, unable to accept a new level of risk and move on with his life. I'd like to help him but I see no possible way, he's convinced that I and 99% of the rest of the public are suicidally insane like people who play literal russian roulette.

I get your perspective, but everybody has their own risk assessment and comfort, and yours is no more necessarily right than his :). Some people still wear masks, some people still take booster shots, some people people still wash their hands, some people sneeze into elbows, some people stay inside, etc. Others may not do some or any of those things. "Accept new risk" and "this is the new normal" is as validly execut…

Also. I think it's rational for myself to wear a mask because getting COVID was one of the worst experiences of my life. It's like if I burned my hand on a stove and someone tried to convince me burning your hand on the stove is normal so no need to take precautions.

Re: Covid patients breathe out large amounts of virus early on

#42

Post by buildsjets »

mcpackieh wrote: post #7

I know a guy who still wears a half-face respirator every time he's in public even for just a second. I think at this rate he'll be wearing it for the rest of his life, unable to accept a new level of risk and move on with his life. I'd like to help him but I see no possible way, he's convinced that I and 99% of the rest of the public are suicidally insane like people who play literal russian roulette.

I know several people who continue to wear masks for completely non-health related reasons. Perhaps he is trying to avoid interacting with you specifically.

Re: Covid patients breathe out large amounts of virus early on

#43

Post by notabee »

mcpackieh wrote: post #7

I know a guy who still wears a half-face respirator every time he's in public even for just a second. I think at this rate he'll be wearing it for the rest of his life, unable to accept a new level of risk and move on with his life. I'd like to help him but I see no possible way, he's convinced that I and 99% of the rest of the public are suicidally insane like people who play literal russian roulette.

One of the first proponents for hand washing and hygiene during medical practice wound up dying in a mental asylum.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7240806

What's considered normal socially is not always what's supported by the evidence at hand, and sometimes what that supports is well outside of the acceptable range of discussion or behavior at the time.

Are you truly concerned that this person has made an error in judgment based on evidence or do they just make you uncomfortable for breaking norms? Are you motivated to post about this because you've considered their reasons and think they've made a harmful, critical error in judgment or are you just seeking approval of your normalcy bias? Do you know enough about their health situation or their family's to be sure that their risk calculation is unreasonable?

The best course of action if you're absolutely sure that there's no threat to you is to ignore them and move on with your life.

Re: Covid patients breathe out large amounts of virus early on

#44

Post by CoastalCoder »

dekhn wrote: post #31

This PR purports to answer a question I had since the beginning of the epidemic when it was clear that transmission was through-air. """“For example, if we assume the infectious dose for COVID is 300 copies, then a person who is exhaling 1,000 viral copies per minute would exhale an infectious dose in 20 seconds (highly risky in an elevator), whereas a person who is exhaling two viral copies per minute would exhale a…

Can someone clarify the concept of "infectious dose"?

My layman's understanding is that even one virion can potentially infect someone. It's just that the odds of infection generally increase with the number of virions. (Modulo many other factors like where the virions reside, immune response, etc.)

But the concept of "an infectious dose" sounds much more binary to me.

EDIT:s/viron/virion/g

Re: Covid patients breathe out large amounts of virus early on

#45

Post by progman32 »

mcpackieh wrote: post #33
NikolaNovak wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your perspective, but everybody has their own risk assessment and comfort, and yours is no more necessarily right than his :). Some people still wear masks, some people still take booster shots, some people people still wash their hands, some people sneeze into elbows, some people stay inside, etc. Others may not do some or any of those things. "Accept new risk" and "this is the new normal" is as validly execut…

> I get your perspective, but everybody has their own risk assessment and comfort Yeah I get that, but with him it seems very out of character. He likes to ski and is a general aviation pilot; these aren't low risk activities. I hope he comes to term with the new normal soon because he's still young and spending the rest of his life paranoid behind a mask would be truly sad.

For him, the reward of those activities possibly justifies the risk in his mind.

I sometimes also mask in public, because it bothers me approximately zero.

Re: Covid patients breathe out large amounts of virus early on

#46

Post by Cupertino95014 »

notabee wrote: post #43
mcpackieh wrote: post #7

I know a guy who still wears a half-face respirator every time he's in public even for just a second. I think at this rate he'll be wearing it for the rest of his life, unable to accept a new level of risk and move on with his life. I'd like to help him but I see no possible way, he's convinced that I and 99% of the rest of the public are suicidally insane like people who play literal russian roulette.

One of the first proponents for hand washing and hygiene during medical practice wound up dying in a mental asylum. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7240806 What's considered normal socially is not always what's supported by the evidence at hand, and sometimes what that supports is well outside of the acceptable range of discussion or behavior at the time. Are you truly concerned that this person has made…

What you just demonstrated is called Survivor Bias or Survivorship Bias:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

what about all the people who challenged what was "considered normal socially" and actually were proven wrong? One never hears about those.

Re: Covid patients breathe out large amounts of virus early on

#47

Post by notabee »

libraryatnight wrote: post #32
o11c wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's literally no downside for him to wearing a mask, why do you even care?

I thought the anti-mask revolution was because they didn't want to be "forced" but now nobody is forcing them and they still can't shut up about masks worn willingly by others.

It was always about forcing a consensus about what's normal, same with so much other human antagonization of outgroups.

Re: Covid patients breathe out large amounts of virus early on

#48

Post by cosmotron »

histriosum wrote: post #4
xnx wrote: post #3

I'm surprised this is news after 3+ years. I would've figured this would've been one of the first things to figure out. I'm sure many would've volunteered to be infected and closely studied early on to collect this information.

Intentionally infecting people for study isn't something that really fits with our medical ethics, at least as I understand them.

As others noted, it does happen and is called a human challenge trial. In fact, here's one for malaria that's currently accepting signups.

https://www.medschool.umaryland.edu/CVD/trials/MAM01/

Re: Covid patients breathe out large amounts of virus early on

#49

Post by talldatethrow »

o11c wrote: post #19
mcpackieh wrote: post #7

I know a guy who still wears a half-face respirator every time he's in public even for just a second. I think at this rate he'll be wearing it for the rest of his life, unable to accept a new level of risk and move on with his life. I'd like to help him but I see no possible way, he's convinced that I and 99% of the rest of the public are suicidally insane like people who play literal russian roulette.

If there's literally no downside for him to wearing a mask, why do you even care?

If I was sick, or if there was a meaningful sickness in the air, I would wear a mask.

But I wouldn't say there is zero downside to wearing a mask, atleast the way 98% of people wore one during covid. (The same one all day, if not a week, touching it, putting it in pockets, around your neck, on your greasy forehead, so on).

I used to wear a mask because allergies when I mowed the lawn or even dirtbiking during certain seasons. It absolutely reduces your ability to take it oxygen easily. I get winded a lot easier wearing a mask. Is that meaningless to children wearing them all day at school? Idk.

Re: Covid patients breathe out large amounts of virus early on

#50

Post by NikolaNovak »

mcpackieh wrote: post #33
NikolaNovak wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your perspective, but everybody has their own risk assessment and comfort, and yours is no more necessarily right than his :). Some people still wear masks, some people still take booster shots, some people people still wash their hands, some people sneeze into elbows, some people stay inside, etc. Others may not do some or any of those things. "Accept new risk" and "this is the new normal" is as validly execut…

> I get your perspective, but everybody has their own risk assessment and comfort Yeah I get that, but with him it seems very out of character. He likes to ski and is a general aviation pilot; these aren't low risk activities. I hope he comes to term with the new normal soon because he's still young and spending the rest of his life paranoid behind a mask would be truly sad.

But again, the risk stats and perspectives and acceptance may differ. You may need to work on yourself to develop empathy for your and his personal choices and stop thinking of him as "sad", more than work on him and try to "help" him :-). The word "paranoid" seems out of place as well - the risk is actual and demonstrable.

For example, skiing is fun. Flying airplanes is fun. And general aviation is quite safe for those who take it seriously. So while there's risk, there's also a reward. And that risk / reward ratio may be what they choose to personally accept.

There's no reward for getting covid! There's no fun in it! And many people either don't want to get it at all (given the risk of either bad immediate symptoms or long term impact), or had bad experience and don't want to recur, or don't want to contribute to chain and infect others yet.

Heck... I'm persuading myself to start wearing mask again (the only reason I stopped is that I work from home, but have a 2yo in daycare and 4yo in kindergarten which massively outweighs any risk I bring into house).

(I do want to ask though - are they wearing like n95 or surgical mask... Or as you mentioned in original post a full painting-sryle respirator with two big round filters etc? That, I'll agree, is a significant comittment if they don't have significant personal risk factors)

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