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Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

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Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#71

Post by AlecSchueler »

jodrellblank wrote: post #49
AlecSchueler wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a good discussion just yesterday, "Why did Visual Basic die?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37470318 That might be a place to start looking. It basically comes down to:b they could take development in any direction and the community of users is powerless.

But why can't you fork it and take it in the direction you want? The situation is literally no different from Python or Node or Ruby, the people running the most popular distribution could take it in a direction you don't like and the power you have (or the only option you have) is forking.

The development for a language like python happens entirely in public though, and is driven by consensus.

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#72

Post by marcosdumay »

easton wrote: post #16
edgyquant wrote: post #6

Why would you use C# if starting a company/project today? I know C# fans love it, but seriously why not choose a community driven language over one controlled by microsoft?

TypeScript is also controlled by MS and that has tons of community support. Sure, if things got evil someone would fork/reimplement, but right now Microsoft decides how the language goes for the most part. And for writing C# on the server, the major benefit is that Microsoft has a batteries included web framework that’s very battle tested. There’s at least one good first party answer for every problem (auth, database…

But there is a very compelling reason to use TypeScript. There isn't one for C#.

(And, oh man, that batteries included battle tested framework is a stinky pile of trash. The language itself is ok, but the framework uses every misguided trend somebody at MS thought as cool, has no documentation of them, and implements half of them in some way that only that person thought about. There is a passable "web framework" inside it, but you have to ignore the MS recommendations and know what tons of pieces to discard, also, it's not very batteries included, because the batteries are almost all poisonous.)

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#73

Post by CharlieDigital »

ubermonkey wrote: post #11
edgyquant wrote: post #6

Why would you use C# if starting a company/project today? I know C# fans love it, but seriously why not choose a community driven language over one controlled by microsoft?

If you're building Windows software, then you might find it easier to use the Windows-native stack. If you're not, then I'm not sure what the appeal would be. I work for a company in the former space. We have no intention of supporting nonWindows clients or nonWindows servers or even nonSQLServer DBs. It's not worth doing from a commercial perspective in our particular market. Consequently, it's C# and .NET.

I do all of my .NET work on a Mac and deploy to Linux -- both x64 and Arm64 -- on the daily.

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#74

Post by anthonypasq »

easton wrote: post #16
edgyquant wrote: post #6

Why would you use C# if starting a company/project today? I know C# fans love it, but seriously why not choose a community driven language over one controlled by microsoft?

TypeScript is also controlled by MS and that has tons of community support. Sure, if things got evil someone would fork/reimplement, but right now Microsoft decides how the language goes for the most part. And for writing C# on the server, the major benefit is that Microsoft has a batteries included web framework that’s very battle tested. There’s at least one good first party answer for every problem (auth, database…

sure, but why not just use Java in that case? Essentially equivalent, except not controlled by Microsoft, and arguably much easier to hire for.

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#75

Post by skwirl »

Woshiwuja wrote: post #55
skwirl wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C# is one of the best designed languages that I've had the pleasure to use.

Except it's a java copy. And java sucks

Have you ever actually written software professionally? I get strong teenage vibes from your comment history.

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#76

Post by HelloNurse »

eddythompson80 wrote: post #64
HelloNurse wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For .Net, there's an established pattern of careless deprecation that produced enough frameworks to date codebases like tree rings: - this year's correct way to access your database is... - this year's correct way to serve dynamic web pages is... - this year's correct way to make a Windows GUI is...

This pattern exists in all languages. I’d argue more so in fragmented community driven projects/languages/tools. Except in the case of languages/tools like python, node, neovim etc. Everytime I touch one of these there is always a new better way of accessing DBs, making a web server, making a client side render, no a server side render, async library, configuration system, build system, runtime, GUI patterns etc.

There is a marked difference between a third party releasing some new library and obtaining (to some extent, demanding) community mindshare, without taking away anything, and the official platform maintainer suddenly replacing practically mandatory parts of what is perceived as the standard library. Javascript churn is fast, .Net churn is deep.

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#77

Post by conor- »

naasking wrote: post #37
INTPenis wrote: post #20

As a lifetime Linux user, I think it's obvious. A startup is about getting a product out to market as soon as possible, and hopefully as cheaply as possible, which can best be done with open and freely available tools. When I'm in the zone, my creativity is flowing, the last thing I need is to register on some website, or to purchase a license.

> A startup is about getting a product out to market as soon as possible, and hopefully as cheaply as possible, which can best be done with open and freely available tools. C# tooling is open and freely available. The source for the compiler and tools are all on github and the tools are all available free to download and use.

The tooling is not entirely open or freely available.

If you, for e.g., want to debug you have to use MS tooling.[0] You also can't use VSCodium because only the MS built/distributed version of VSCode contains the proprietary binary blobs necessary to debug C# (which also means you're forced into the aggressive telemetry and other data collection built into the non-open source distribution of VSCode).

They've also taken steps to lock down the LSP support for C#, which once again requires that you use a MS sanctioned editor to write C#. [1]

I really enjoy writing C# and think dotnet is a great platform to develop for, but the barriers preventing me from building more projects on it is that I don't want to be forced to use VSCode or Visual Studio. I also don't want to get too invested into a particular piece of tooling that is going to be rug pulled down the road by some MS product manager who isn't aligned with the "MS [0] https://github.com/dotnet/core/issues/505

[1] https://github.com/dotnet/vscode-csharp/issues/5276

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#78

Post by naraga »

i've tried to "escape" .net ecosystem few times already. reason always was curiosity about pther ecosystems / languages. Ruby, Python, JS, Rust. i have returned every single time. from my point of view every other thing i've tried is underdeveloped toy compared to what .net ecosystem gives you. superb languages (c#, f#) toolset, compatibility guarantees. i understand the rebelion point of view and a pay huge respect to those people pushing alternatives forward. thanks to them Microsoft was also able to adapt to latest fanciest standards.

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#79

Post by wryanzimmerman »

easton wrote: post #16
edgyquant wrote: post #6

Why would you use C# if starting a company/project today? I know C# fans love it, but seriously why not choose a community driven language over one controlled by microsoft?

TypeScript is also controlled by MS and that has tons of community support. Sure, if things got evil someone would fork/reimplement, but right now Microsoft decides how the language goes for the most part. And for writing C# on the server, the major benefit is that Microsoft has a batteries included web framework that’s very battle tested. There’s at least one good first party answer for every problem (auth, database…

If you had to, you could go from typescript to JavaScript overnight in a large project, whereas no similar escape hatch exists for C#.

As for the frontend, you have to have so JavaScript somewhere, it’s unavoidable, so typescript is just a way to make the inevitable more palatable.

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#80

Post by naraga »

HelloNurse wrote: post #58
AlecSchueler wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a good discussion just yesterday, "Why did Visual Basic die?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37470318 That might be a place to start looking. It basically comes down to:b they could take development in any direction and the community of users is powerless.

For .Net, there's an established pattern of careless deprecation that produced enough frameworks to date codebases like tree rings: - this year's correct way to access your database is... - this year's correct way to serve dynamic web pages is... - this year's correct way to make a Windows GUI is...

yet they still support it all. also, you dont want them to stick to some old tech. you want them to evolve and take the best from industry. imho, they are doing just that and they are very good at it.
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