Live data from Hacker News

Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

old.reddit.com

61–70 of 124 posts

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#61
.NET Core was in some ways inspired by the ALT .NET movement(I think).

I'm not entirely sure where it started, but if my own experience (from 2012) is any indication then it was very much related to people coming out of enterprise and government, that had to deal with ASP.NET and WebForms, but didn't want to deal with it, because they had experience with web frameworks that weren't the nightmare ASP.NET and WebForms were.

I worked with a few of those in 2012 and people were hopeful about .net core. But the major difference between .net core and typescript besides the historical mental baggage and the way Microsoft typically responds to patches to open source projects is that typescript was building on a massive JavaScript base. And because ECMAScript development was active these two were building on each other.

I think C# is a lot nicer than Java but unfortunately with the community mismanagement it's not really a serious contender unless you HAVE to be in that environment(i.e. Microsoft Stack in US healthcare/govt for example)

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#62

Why would you use C# if starting a company/project today? I know C# fans love it, but seriously why not choose a community driven language over one controlled by microsoft?

Because MS provides superb documentation and backwards compatibility. Everything you write now will still compile after 20 years.

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#63
The naming truly sucks. You search for .NET and you find .NET framework, ASP.NET, .NET Core, .NET Framework, what even is .NET Xamarin MAUI?

You look for a solution and find an [AttributeDecorator] that no longer works or is considered bad practise, or is it the new silver bullet - who knows? You better return IHttpActionResult, or do you set the context.Response? Hmm.

It's much easier with younger Frameworks like Svelte, NestJS, Flutter or younger languages like TypeScript, GraphQL. You won't be told stuff that's been dead for 20 years.

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a good discussion just yesterday, "Why did Visual Basic die?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37470318 That might be a place to start looking. It basically comes down to:b they could take development in any direction and the community of users is powerless.

For .Net, there's an established pattern of careless deprecation that produced enough frameworks to date codebases like tree rings: - this year's correct way to access your database is... - this year's correct way to serve dynamic web pages is... - this year's correct way to make a Windows GUI is...

This pattern exists in all languages. I’d argue more so in fragmented community driven projects/languages/tools.

Except in the case of languages/tools like python, node, neovim etc. Everytime I touch one of these there is always a new better way of accessing DBs, making a web server, making a client side render, no a server side render, async library, configuration system, build system, runtime, GUI patterns etc.

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#66
post #19

Do people actually like C#? It seems like a really bloated language with a ton of features.

I actually enjoy it. And this is coming from someone that spent a lot of time in C, assembler, lisp, Scala, Java, and so on....C# is much nicer than it used to be, and gets out of the way. Tooling is so much better than it was just 5 years ago. I'm using rider on an m2 with no issues. Of course it's not free- regular vs2022 won't even open on a mac. Most of the things I don't like about C# mostly have to do with the community and the average C# developer. Even the documentation, which used to just suck, is getting better.

Re: Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

#70
When I joined the .NET team in 2015, we were rounding out the first arc of the journey to be truly cross-platform, and June of 2016 released a 1.0. It was an absolute mess of a release, but it actually happened. You can bet your ass that "go after startups" was a part of the strategy - in my first team meeting we literally all read a blog post about how Go was picked over C# at Parse. I'm sure our execution of that strategy could have gone better, but it could have been a lot worse too.

Since then, I learned a great deal about how inertia within developer communities works. Every single year I'd speak with a skeptic and they'd have a "reason" not to use .NET that wasn't true. Eventually they'd land on a reason that was true, and in most cases, we were already working on it. We'd even find some past skeptics say publicly how they started paying attention, picked up the tech, and loved it. Fast forward to 2020 and pretty much every possible reason that isn't purely idealogical evaporated because we (hundreds of us) did an immense amount of extremely hard work. But by and large, the perception is still there.

The reality is that .NET was a Windows technology for a long time, operating in a space ("the enterprise") that's a wholly separate universe from startups. And people bring what they know into companies; they don't usually try to learn new languages or tech unless it's required for their job. And that's created a feedback cycle where .NET is outside the startup and high tech scene.

Yes, there's warts (don't get me started on how MSBuild isn't deterministic, although you likely wouldn't have known that...), but few people run into them. Yes, there's missing packages for some stuff but that gap closes every year. It's not about that. It's about a cultural feedback cycle that .NET is simply not a part of. The bet was that we could build great tech that works in most environments, sprinkle some marketing on it, and people will pick it up. That's largely not happened. Most of modern .NET is still in the same space that Windows .NET was, it's just that it's kept pace with (and sometimes led) the modernization of general tech in that space. That's largely fine because there's millions of developers there.

Post reply on HN