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Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

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Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#301
This seems like an asshole move when there already is Librivox for decades.

Many of the readers of Librivox are not great, but I'd rather have the worst of them over AI.

Even a future better AI that knows more about when to pause and how to pronounce things the right way from context, will still be lifeless because it can't actually understand the full context, only the surrounding words. The actual full context of a given word or phrase requires not only pattern-matching the surrounding words, but having a sense of self and inserting that self into the described situation, and applying that selfs response to that, which will be not only more lifelike and realistic and meaningful, but also be a bit different for every different human reader. Good readers aren't simply doing it more correctly, their own unavoidable interpretation of the text is in their reading, even if they are trying to be a robotic neutral newscaster.

Sometimes I'm actually annoyed by how a reader reads a given sentence differently than I would have. Like they failed to realize what the thrust of the thing was and focussed on some other part. But even those are better than an AI that will either always apply the same algorithm, or worse, maybe varies it but only randomly, not as a result of having a personality that colors everything.

I guess at some point they will be able to make AI's that can fake the quasi-random-consistency of a personality. If someone can describe the problem like I just did, then someone else can code up a response to it. And then it will be good enough to essentially fool most not-very-perceptive people, and that will suck because it means we won't have a choice to avoid that crap any more. Much content will simply only be produced this way, because it will be cheaper to make and good enough for most people, and so will sell. Once it's good enough to sell, that's it, that's what happens almost exclusively after that. Like bluetooth headphones.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2D aspect is the part of Excel I don't understand. Why does it have to be a grid? It's great for laying out things meant to print, and making invoices and stuff... But why didn't we have code files and proper fixed layout DB-style tables as "pages" that can go in a workbook? Maybe keeping everything as 2D as possible is a necessary compromise for the spatial thinkers out there, and they just wouldn't want it if i…

When doing calculations on paper, you can write your interim results anywhere. That's what excel copies. It's also why text in excel files will gladly overflow into adjacent cells.

That kind of thing seems very natural if you've done any calculations on paper recently(Which most business people have) but seems strange to programmers who haven't.

You would think the ideal would be to allow everything Excel currently does, but also have some other model with more separation of code, data, and visuals, like node-based programming and separate cloud-synced pure tables.

Excel can almost cover a lot of "real programming" use cases, but not quite. The upgrade path seems to be Excel to Access to Custom app, rather than Excel to Excel but with more of the advanced features.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people who wrote VB weren’t serious/professional programmers and VB.NET was too complex for them. For the serious programmer group, the stink of “VB” tainted it right out of the gate (despite having complete feature parity for a long time VB.NET jobs always paid notably less than C# ones). So it was kind of a compromise that satisfied nobody.

That was me. I wrote what I affectionately call "crapware," which are small apps that solve a problem but are not intended for use at scale. There was a lot of this stuff, such as little database queries, or hacking together a few industrial sensors with a crude display. Businesses ran on crapware. Maybe they still do. A few thousand lines of code that I wrote for a manufacturing fixture ran bug-free for more than a…

I've written a lot of crapware, still keeps my employer working 15+ years on. Meanwhile "replacement" systems have come and gone, but the users still keep using the crapware.

1) See a business problem

2) Put something together to solve the problem

3) Move On

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> VB got a full rewrite into an object-oriented language and the IDE moved further away from the VB6 visual building paradigm. What do you mean by this? Visual Studio today has a designer / code editor that works in a very similar way to VB6 that I remember. What do you think is missing?

VB6’s concept of OOP was different. Sure the same keywords are found: Module, Sub, etc but it was rewritten to run on IL/NET VM. Fundamentally changing it from a COM compatible language to a .Net framework compatible one.

VB6's concept of OOP was simple enough it could have been translated into .NET and .NET is broadly compatible with COM. I'm certain Microsoft could have made it work. They really needed to consider VB6 as a backwards compatibility target instead of building VB.NET as a modern replacement. VB.NET really has no reason to exist; it's not compatible enough with VB6 but then also includes a bunch of VB6's weirdness.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: what is a good alternative to Access (edit: to build a GUI frontend to a database)? The database design tools and basic forms were incredibly easy to use, and there were very good tutorials for everything else. LibreOffice Base is different and not even close in comprehensiveness, and there seems to be nothing replacing it that isn't a super expensive SaaS.

maybe SqlServer Express ? It has limits on memory and DB size, but if your project is small it might suffice, in conjunction with Management Studio Express. I've never used Access so apologies if you're looking for more than a GUI-driven interface to the DB.

It is not. Access was easy to build the app on top of a reasonable database seamlessly, integrated, visually. SQL Express is just the database part and there is nothing that integrates so well on it like Access does internally. Access is not powerful enough for larger databases, but boy it was easy to use for small ones.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#307
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was trying to compare like for like on features. Slapping together a few fields and a button in react and posting the results to an unauthorized endpoint doesn't feel any more difficult to me than the same in VB. However, it's certainly an order of magnitude more complex to use react with all the features expected of modern development with design systems, auth/z, logging, monitoring, etc.

I'm deploying react to a CDN for a living, and I would have no idea how to instruct someone to "slap together a few fields and a button" and put it somewhere meaningful. As a kid, I remember making full blown D&D character sheets based on an easy Access backend. You could even print them out. I want to, but I just can't back any claim that things have gotten easier for pretty much anything. With a ton of extra power…

On the other hand, I never understood how to build anything with Access despite having a book on it as a teen.

Web tech, even in its early forms, was much more obvious to me and I could run code in the browser's web console. I could find JS snippets online, paste them into index.html, and open the page. I found VB/Access far more confusing than that.

These days I help beginners pick up web dev and I think HNers overestimate (if not circlejerk over) how hard it is just because create-react-app does a lot of things. Client development always had a bunch of specific knowledge you had to learn, and the fat stack of supporting software you generally use (IDEs, Xcode, node_modules, SDK APIs, browser APIs, etc) was always a behemoth.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#308
post #134

The reason is even bigger than just VB. MS at the time just decide to fully kill the "enthusiast" developer and the "single/truly small" team developer. This is mostly covered under the "RAD" umbrella. It kills VB, FoxPro, and now more evidently, Access (more like let it slowly die). .NET + Visual Studio + Sql Server are not a substitute in this market. Them are for "professional developer"/"a small cog in a big mach…

Jesus Christ, not FoxPro.

I briefly worked for a company whose main product had been a FoxPro application that they rewrote piece by piece in C#, reimplementing various FoxPro idioms as they went. It was a nightmare and no one knew what any of it did. One "senior" developer tearfully argued with me during a code review that even fixing comments could have dire consequences.

I suspect that someone higher up liked it that way, because I was fired shortly after mathematically proving that something was really wrong in some of the accounting code.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> VB got a full rewrite into an object-oriented language and the IDE moved further away from the VB6 visual building paradigm. What do you mean by this? Visual Studio today has a designer / code editor that works in a very similar way to VB6 that I remember. What do you think is missing?

A lot of people who wrote VB weren’t serious/professional programmers and VB.NET was too complex for them. For the serious programmer group, the stink of “VB” tainted it right out of the gate (despite having complete feature parity for a long time VB.NET jobs always paid notably less than C# ones). So it was kind of a compromise that satisfied nobody.

I think today python fills that void - people who are not serious programmers but need to put something together. Think academics, data analysts, etc. And since Python is cross platform and easy to get started with it is a lot more attractive than VB.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#310
post #143

Visual Basic (both of them) still exist, but their use has dropped dramatically through some big changes: * "Visual .NET" (aka "Visual Fred" http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/Visual-Fred.html ) was released by Microsoft. This was an incompatible language confusingly also called Visual Basic. I don't think Microsoft realized how angry this made developers and businesses, who were being asked to spend hundreds of billions…

As someone who was writing Visual Basic.NET back when it came out, there was no upside to it over writing in C#. VB's original sweet spot was for writing small scripts and apps in Windows, and it was the only language available. When the .NET line came out, you could do the same things in whichever language you wanted. When new tasks came in, I started defaulting to C# for that reason. I don't think anyone actually p…

I prefer VB syntax :) I'm not a fan of semicolons and curly braces.
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