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Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

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Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#191

Does VBA for Excel count? Because if it does then VBA for Excel has reached the"nuclear resistant cockroach" level in finance. You wouldn't believe what sort of processes in very big banks/financial institutions are built using 10 year old VBA macros. In fact, VBA consulting for finance is a very juicy cottage industry at least in Europe to this very day.

There is a book called: Professional Excel Development. If you want to get into it. You could probably use that book to build an OS in Excel. I'm not joking.

This sounds like it would be right up my alley. I'm not a professional developer of any kind but have done hobby coding on/off for years, and I'm better at excel than the average user.

Currently working for a consulting company with a whole region's health system as the client. They use excel for lots, but it's all very basic stuff. I had one of my team members spend an hour whipping up an excel form for them that auto generates letters to different departments with all the necessary information. Even some basic standard work forms, let alone any sort of automation, would help them a lot as they rely on people to send certain information that gets missed every time. They described our excel sheet as a game changer for them.

Almost no-one has access to their ERP system which is safeguarded by a certain department which is ridiculous. I'm working on a spreadsheet for their HR team to calculate bonuses for certain employees based on a bunch of variables, then auto-generating letters to review and distribute. The data from their ERP software is such a mess, but I'm making up for it by cleaning up their reports in excel. I plan to get access to their ERP system to look at what kind of reporting I can do as HR only gets a report from the system once a month. I want to help them track real time stats for hiring, etc. And curious if I'm able to connect some spreadsheets to their ERP with an API or something (haven't done anything like that before).

Anyways, that professional development for excel book looks interesting. I see the second version is from 2009 and may not even be up to date with 2007 excel. I'm sure most of the concepts would stay the same though, so I'll definitely have to check it out.

I realize excel wouldn't be considered the most professional or robust way to build applications, but since microsoft 365 seems so standard and everyone uses excel, it makes sense to me why so many organizations use it. There seems to be a lot of potential to apply some excel automation in a lot of industries, especially ones that already rely on it as others have mentioned in this thread. I use it as a means to an end when helping clients, but I also see dollar signs as I find ways to build things that can be applied to so many industries.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excel is literally 2D programming. Us mortal developers who can only put lines below one another are incapable of comprehending it, so we only get to ask the wise finance people how their enigma works. On a serious note, I dread excel. If your PC is set to german, excel will translate the VBA keywords to german. But if you want to type them, you have to do that in english and then have excel translate them. I don't w…

The 2D aspect is the part of Excel I don't understand. Why does it have to be a grid? It's great for laying out things meant to print, and making invoices and stuff... But why didn't we have code files and proper fixed layout DB-style tables as "pages" that can go in a workbook? Maybe keeping everything as 2D as possible is a necessary compromise for the spatial thinkers out there, and they just wouldn't want it if i…

When doing calculations on paper, you can write your interim results anywhere. That's what excel copies. It's also why text in excel files will gladly overflow into adjacent cells.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#193
The productivity wasn't really that good. Rose tinted glasses. All the VB apps I've seen (and still get paid to maintain/rewrite to this day in the finance world) are an order of magnitude simpler than even a simple modern website. They often only have a few users, no devops automation, no deployment automation, terrible logging, terrible instrumentation, no tests, unacceptable access control, tons of failure edge cases, and poor performance.

Most don't even have central databases, they just sit on Access and get copy pasted around like spreadsheets.

While the UI part of Visual Basic was fast and easy, so is writing a React frontend that just stores data in browser LocalStorage, has no authentication, no logging, no monitoring, no tests, and deployment is emailing an updated js file to customers.

The complexity of modern development enables 10-100x better productivity across all aspects of: safety, security, monitoring, error handling, maintenance, and new feature development.

I can whip together a modern website that ticks all these boxes. To achieve the same in VB+Access would be monumental.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: what is a good alternative to Access (edit: to build a GUI frontend to a database)? The database design tools and basic forms were incredibly easy to use, and there were very good tutorials for everything else. LibreOffice Base is different and not even close in comprehensiveness, and there seems to be nothing replacing it that isn't a super expensive SaaS.

SQLite. It's not close in terms of ease-of-use of the GUI administration and forms, but as a single-server database solution to embed into a line-of-business app it's fantastic.

...it's fantastic if you are able to live within its limitations, primarily being a single writer.

If your application grows into the need for concurrent writes, then it will be time for another database.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#195
post #134

The reason is even bigger than just VB. MS at the time just decide to fully kill the "enthusiast" developer and the "single/truly small" team developer. This is mostly covered under the "RAD" umbrella. It kills VB, FoxPro, and now more evidently, Access (more like let it slowly die). .NET + Visual Studio + Sql Server are not a substitute in this market. Them are for "professional developer"/"a small cog in a big mach…

Serious question: what is a good alternative to Access (edit: to build a GUI frontend to a database)? The database design tools and basic forms were incredibly easy to use, and there were very good tutorials for everything else. LibreOffice Base is different and not even close in comprehensiveness, and there seems to be nothing replacing it that isn't a super expensive SaaS.

maybe SqlServer Express ? It has limits on memory and DB size, but if your project is small it might suffice, in conjunction with Management Studio Express.

I've never used Access so apologies if you're looking for more than a GUI-driven interface to the DB.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#196
post #178
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was writing Visual Basic.NET back when it came out, there was no upside to it over writing in C#. VB's original sweet spot was for writing small scripts and apps in Windows, and it was the only language available. When the .NET line came out, you could do the same things in whichever language you wanted. When new tasks came in, I started defaulting to C# for that reason. I don't think anyone actually p…

> When new tasks came in, I started defaulting to C# for that reason. I don't think anyone actually prefers VB syntax. C# has a pretty robust community around it now. Which was your experience because you knew C. VB appealed to people who were not programmers (or not very good ones like me). Microsoft effectively tossed an easy to learn procedural language in the trash and said "go learn all these advanced CS concept…

While maybe that's true, that doesn't map to my experience very well. After QBasic, I wrote a lot of Visual Basic 5 and 6. I had poked at C, but would not say I knew it, and had never done anything useful in the language. But I did exactly one thing in VB.NET before trying C# and realizing that it really did encapsulate and present a better way to think about code. It's not perfect, but it's much, much better--and in that era, .NET 2 or so, it was significantly more ergonomic and had better tooling than Java or PHP, the other two languages I learned about contemporaneously with C#.

Maybe there's a mass cohort of people who were simply not going to learn something new, but in the light of most of twenty years hence, I think that they made the right call.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: what is a good alternative to Access (edit: to build a GUI frontend to a database)? The database design tools and basic forms were incredibly easy to use, and there were very good tutorials for everything else. LibreOffice Base is different and not even close in comprehensiveness, and there seems to be nothing replacing it that isn't a super expensive SaaS.

SQLite. It's not close in terms of ease-of-use of the GUI administration and forms, but as a single-server database solution to embed into a line-of-business app it's fantastic.

I know how to write a Django app with a SQLite backend, but that's not what Access does.

There are basic SQLite GUIs, but they have no reporting functionality and no customizable forms.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excel is literally 2D programming. Us mortal developers who can only put lines below one another are incapable of comprehending it, so we only get to ask the wise finance people how their enigma works. On a serious note, I dread excel. If your PC is set to german, excel will translate the VBA keywords to german. But if you want to type them, you have to do that in english and then have excel translate them. I don't w…

The 2D aspect is the part of Excel I don't understand. Why does it have to be a grid? It's great for laying out things meant to print, and making invoices and stuff... But why didn't we have code files and proper fixed layout DB-style tables as "pages" that can go in a workbook? Maybe keeping everything as 2D as possible is a necessary compromise for the spatial thinkers out there, and they just wouldn't want it if i…

This is why I'm fanatical about using proper Tables in Excel wherever possible. Any db-like kind of data is first turned into a table, then I work with it using whatever formulas, code, or tools I need to. Half the time this means dropping into PowerQuery to do more transformations on the entire set, then finally using Excel formulas or pivots as needed.

But I really like Excel for allowing me to just plop stuff down wherever when I'm brainstorming something, or just want to do a one-off calculation before I quit-without-saving.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excel is literally 2D programming. Us mortal developers who can only put lines below one another are incapable of comprehending it, so we only get to ask the wise finance people how their enigma works. On a serious note, I dread excel. If your PC is set to german, excel will translate the VBA keywords to german. But if you want to type them, you have to do that in english and then have excel translate them. I don't w…

> But if you want to type them, you have to do that in english and then have excel translate them. Huh? At least in the versions I've used I've always needed to type the commands in German. There's even an online German - English Excel dictionary...

I wittnessed this very fuckery with my own eyes just two weeks ago:

It was an excel file created in pandas that threw an error on english commands but worked if the code included german ones.

I don't know how or why that happens, I just know I need to get away from it.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?

#200
I actually wrote a long article on this [1]—and had a chance to interview some of the team that built the original version of VB that was sold to Microsoft. (Alan Cooper and Michael Geary; Michael actually frequents HN pretty regularly!)

My opinion is that it was a confluence of a few factors:

- Microsoft was very worried about the threat of Java/Sun, and rotated hard into .NET and the common language runtime as a response.

- The most vocal, but minority of VB users wanted more advanced functionality and a more powerful/expressive language (as is often the case). Couple with the shift to .NET, Microsoft listened to them: VB got a full rewrite into an object-oriented language and the IDE moved further away from the VB6 visual building paradigm. That left the silent majority high and dry.

- The web emerged. Working with the Win32 API was suddenly less relevant, and younger devs adopted PHP en masse, rather than adopting VB. (And existing VB6 devs upset about the change also migrated over when they could build for the web instead of Windows) Unforced error on Microsoft's part, since IE had 96% browser marketshare in 2001.

[1] https://retool.com/visual-basic/

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