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Gen Z is giving up on college

businessinsider.nl

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Re: Gen Z is giving up on college

#91

Post by dagw »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #47
com2kid wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen modern plumbing? Solar heaters for water, grey water reclamation systems, hydronic heating, smart controllers for garden sprinklers. I've talked to quite a few very smart plumbers. The ones at the top of the field (earning good $) work with complex setups.

Majority of plumbing work (which also pays well) is still just fixing legacy pipework from old building that's decaying and needing repairs or replacements, not installing the latest heat-pump powered 'Butt-Squirter 2000', which still uses the same plumbing concepts of the last 100 years.

Majority of plumbing work (which also pays well)

Does it? Last time I had major plumbing work done, a guy showed up in a very nice car (he no doubt earned very well) looked at what needed to be done and gave us quote. The two guys who barely spoke English and where on site 8-10 hours a day for a week actually doing the actual work probably earned considerably less.

Re: Gen Z is giving up on college

#92

Post by freilanzer »

Gigachad wrote: post #86
CodinM wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a green heron since the issue at hand isn't "oh but you can study without a diploma", the issue is "you won't be taken seriously because you don't have credentials" e.g. piece of paper.

How true is this though? At least in tech, I have never felt held back by not having a degree. How many jobs does having a humanities degree unlock?

Very true. Every job here is looking for at least a Bsc. You wouldn't really get taken seriously.

Re: Gen Z is giving up on college

#93

Post by iLoveOncall »

nottheengineer wrote: post #27

Maybe there's another part that leads to this. The world is rapidly growing in complexity, so people may not know exactly what to do after finishing high school. Anecdotally, I found that to be the case in germany. We get state-funded universities and people often start over in a different subject after realizing they didn't pick the correct one the first time around. I did that too. My and my friends' parents said t…

You can easily switch majors in the US too, so this is a non-issue.

You can even do both a major and a minor, or two majors, if you're unsure.

Re: Gen Z is giving up on college

#94

Post by FirmwareBurner »

dagw wrote: post #91
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Majority of plumbing work (which also pays well) is still just fixing legacy pipework from old building that's decaying and needing repairs or replacements, not installing the latest heat-pump powered 'Butt-Squirter 2000', which still uses the same plumbing concepts of the last 100 years.

Majority of plumbing work (which also pays well) Does it? Last time I had major plumbing work done, a guy showed up in a very nice car (he no doubt earned very well) looked at what needed to be done and gave us quote. The two guys who barely spoke English and where on site 8-10 hours a day for a week actually doing the actual work probably earned considerably less.

>The two guys who barely spoke English and where on site 8-10 hours a day for a week actually doing the actual work probably earned considerably less.

US might be a different beast.

I live in western Europe where qualified plumbers earn well because it's a credentialed job and labor exploitation of migrants in credentialed Jobs is less of an issue (but still does happen). You can't just hire some migrants off the street and send them off to do plumbing for you.

A plumber in Denmark can sometimes earn more than a SW developer.

Re: Gen Z is giving up on college

#95

Post by oliwarner »

dahart wrote: post #18

> Four years after graduating, according to recent data from the Higher Education Authority, a third of students earn less than $40,000 — lower than the average salary of $44,356 that workers with only a high-school diploma earn. Red flag here, this seems like a super misleading and bogus comparison. There is no good reason to compare the bottom third of graduates to the whole pool of non-graduates other than to try…

Does that study cover what their parents were worth before they decided to go into higher education or not? Some families can't afford for their kids to leave home —they might be carers, they might have jobs— even before you consider $100k of debt.

If it's really just richer people in, richer people out, it's hardly surprising the median salaries are split.

I'm not questioning whether or not higher education has value, not even if it presents a good ROI, but I am suspicious of numbers that present nothing but race as the "background", when that is such an important part of who goes into higher ed.

Re: Gen Z is giving up on college

#96

Post by friend_and_foe »

Young people are more attuned to where the wind is blowing, in part because they are part of the force that drives it, but generally because they're still learning how to navigate the world and don't have the privilege of not paying attention.

You can get any book online for free. Any research paper. Any textbook. Any information you like that is known to more than a couple of people. You can even get almost all MIT coursework free, they give it to you. You. can get a full education watching videos and reading books online, for free. Illegal or no, if you are in it for the education and not for the credential you don't have to pay anyone for it anymore. As long as the internet exists this is a fact of life. Another fact of life is that only middling people get paid for credentials, the big bucks are earned by people that know what they're talking about and have some expertise. You need a credential to be mediocre, you need to excel at something to be excellent, and anybody that recognizes excellence doesn't need a piece of paper to confirm it.

The rent seeking information brokers are all very mad about this of course. From news media to education to publishing, they're all clamoring something be done about it. But nothing can be done about it. They'll sell you the "college experience", the "need to stay informed", they'll guilt you, they'll try to scare you, but at best it buys them a little time. Nothing holds back the tide and their days are numbered as powerful institutions in our society.

Re: Gen Z is giving up on college

#97

Post by throwaway_7d1f »

freilanzer wrote: post #90
CalRobert wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved from the US to Europe (first Ireland, now Netherlands) and one thing I really, really miss is junior colleges. Sure there's a few post-leaving-cert or adult education classes but in California I could just go to www.smc.edu/, sign up for stuff that looked interesting (Android dev, Assembly, and German in the last semester I was there for reference), pay nominal tuition and keep my career going, and go lean co…

That sounds great and much more like the concept that a university should be than what we have in Germany. I couldn't deviate from my courses in the slightest way, even when they didn't make any sense: mathematical logic held by a linguist because no one else was available. Wanted to take statistics, which would be highly relevant, instead? Well, you can't.

I went to a university in my country (Nordic country) at the end of the 90s. At that time you could actually just sign up to anything you wanted. You could follow a course in database theory at the same time as a course in ancient Greek history. If you wanted a specific degree (like "system development") you were free to compose your own plan, so long as they met certain requirements

I know several people who took a class out of curiosity and changed their career when they found their true calling. One effect of this was that you got a much broader set of people than the typical "nerdy guy". CS stole a lot of people who originally intended to focus on studies like sociology, law, economics, psychology and philosophy, but fell in love with CS. It was also much easier to combine work and studies when you could register for classes without committing to a full 3/5 year program.

Today, the same university focus on full time students who "bind" themselves to a specific program. I feel bad for the students today who are forced to follow a much more strict program. They still have some freedom, but it's much more limited and it's harder to "cross over" if you want to follow a class that belongs to a different program. I'm not surprised that many decide to drop out.

Re: Gen Z is giving up on college

#98

Post by taylorius »

pharos92 wrote: post #73
taylorius wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary interests of business are primarily making money. When capitalism works at it's best, the innovation and exploring of new territory is the mechanism by which companies gain an edge in the market. Unfortunately there are other, less useful ways of gaining market advantage (monopolies, cartels, regulatory capture etc). It's a problem of corruption. To quote Bill Burr - "The president makes 400 grand a year.…

Make money, yes. But it's hard (in a corruption free environment) to make money without providing a level of value.

I'm sure that's true - and if I ever witness a corruption free environment, I shall verify! :-)

Re: Gen Z is giving up on college

#99

Post by johnnyanmac »

dahart wrote: post #18

> Four years after graduating, according to recent data from the Higher Education Authority, a third of students earn less than $40,000 — lower than the average salary of $44,356 that workers with only a high-school diploma earn. Red flag here, this seems like a super misleading and bogus comparison. There is no good reason to compare the bottom third of graduates to the whole pool of non-graduates other than to try…

>There is no good reason to compare the bottom third of graduates to the whole pool of non-graduates other than to try to justify a misleading comparison about graduates somehow earning less when they’re not.

if 33% of a "more educated population" is ending up worse than the less educated average, I'd say it's something to note. But I think the conclusion came out wrong.

on a micro level, it shouldn't affect if you go to college. But it should affect why and how you go to college. I didn't take this as "college isn't worth it full stop", I took it as "you can't just use college to 'find yourself' anymore". If you don't want to end up in that bottom third who probably switched majors, took breaks, or dropped out, you need a plan and to stick with it. You need to pick a diploma that has a good ROI instead of winging it with a more Artistic degree.

Or you know, you just need rich parents to supplement "the college experience". Let's never forget the elite aare insulated from the problems of the future working class.

Re: Gen Z is giving up on college

#100

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

More articles by same author on similar/same topic

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education-and-careers/2023/08/17...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/03/british-higher-e...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education-and-careers/2022/08/21...

Author's background

"Coming from a school where hairdressing and catering were offered as vocational courses alongside more traditional subjects, I can see the value and importance of offering a wide spectrum of qualifications as many people choose different career paths after compulsory education."

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2007/aug/24/schools.uk

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