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Turbo 8 is dropping TypeScript

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Re: Turbo 8 is dropping TypeScript

#71

Post by roland35 »

eterevsky wrote: post #61
DojoAsh wrote: post #55

Typescript solved the "I spent hours debugging, only to find I misspelled a property" problem. FastAPI did the same for Python. I have noticed that untyped languages (or "dynamic" languages, if that makes it sound more advanced) have typing added to them by people who love the language, but hate 10x debugging. On the other hand, I can't think of a single example of a strongly typed language that has been "fixed" by s…

I'm not sure about "spending hours". In my experience it's more like "detect an error during compilation instead of an exception during execution". Once you see the exception, it's usually quite clear what exact property is misspelled. So strong typing saves a few second of execution and reduces the need for some types of unit tests.

It is always the thing you forget to unit test that causes the issue. Or the one code path that rarely runs, and causes a mysterious error once a month.

Re: Turbo 8 is dropping TypeScript

#72

Post by roland35 »

qwoter wrote: post #65
coderhs wrote: post #59

sarcasm They should also remove tests from the projects as well. Such a burden on the developer to write test and worry about how to test when they just need to focus on implementing the logic. Very few programmers are typically interested in having their opinion on writing test changed. Most programmers find themselves drawn strongly to testing or not quite early in their career, and then spend the rest of it ration…

Tests are literally type replacement in dynamic languages, only controlled. It's always mentally easier to do what you are forced to instead of writing tests consciously. That is how the other side is looking at people who tell everyone that there is no coding without typing. People who surrender "think more, do less", instead doing more and thinking less - More is less sounds disgusting to me. A big part of developm…

Prototyping is fun but over fast - most programs spend much more time in the "maintenance" phase. Code is generally read more than it's written. Types make all that boring stuff safer and easier!

Re: Turbo 8 is dropping TypeScript

#74

Post by antihero »

claytongulick wrote: post #34
bottlepalm wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the flawless code you've written over 20 years where static typing would have done nothing for you or anyone else maintaining your code.

You sure do seem to have it in for folks who don't share your opinion. You've been pretty aggressively posting all over this discussion. No one is trying to kill your puppy or taking your types away. Competent people can have different opinions. You have something that works for you. Great. The fact that you don't understand why others don't share your opinion doesn't make them wrong or "incompetent" as you said in a…

> No one is trying to kill your puppy or taking your types away.

dhh literally took people’s types away. People don’t like that.

Re: Turbo 8 is dropping TypeScript

#75

Post by mosselman »

abhaga wrote: post #49
mosselman wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which way don’t you agree with the statement then?

That programmers don't change their opinion about types. He did.

But dhh didn’t say that. He said that very few programmers, not all, don’t like having their opinions changed in typing. He didn’t say they don’t like it when it happens on their own, they don’t like it when others try to do it. At least that what dhh says. Not saying I agree.

You can’t just read something, change it’s meaning and then argue against it.

Re: Turbo 8 is dropping TypeScript

#76

Post by debaserab2 »

mosselman wrote: post #75
abhaga wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That programmers don't change their opinion about types. He did.

But dhh didn’t say that. He said that very few programmers, not all, don’t like having their opinions changed in typing. He didn’t say they don’t like it when it happens on their own, they don’t like it when others try to do it. At least that what dhh says. Not saying I agree. You can’t just read something, change it’s meaning and then argue against it.

How did I change it's meaning?

DHH said:

> very few programmers are typically interested in having their opinion on typing changed. Most programmers find themselves drawn strongly to typing or not quite early in their career, and then spend the rest of it rationalizing The Correct Choice to themselves and others.

IME, my story doesn't seem to be that unique among typescript advocates thus I do not relate to DHH's statement.

Re: Turbo 8 is dropping TypeScript

#77

Post by mosselman »

debaserab2 wrote: post #76
mosselman wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But dhh didn’t say that. He said that very few programmers, not all, don’t like having their opinions changed in typing. He didn’t say they don’t like it when it happens on their own, they don’t like it when others try to do it. At least that what dhh says. Not saying I agree. You can’t just read something, change it’s meaning and then argue against it.

How did I change it's meaning? DHH said: > very few programmers are typically interested in having their opinion on typing changed. Most programmers find themselves drawn strongly to typing or not quite early in their career, and then spend the rest of it rationalizing The Correct Choice to themselves and others. IME, my story doesn't seem to be that unique among typescript advocates thus I do not relate to DHH's sta…

You’re right I am sorry.

Re: Turbo 8 is dropping TypeScript

#78

Post by etler »

debaserab2 wrote: post #31
tticvs wrote: post #9

> very few programmers are typically interested in having their opinion on typing changed. Most programmers find themselves drawn strongly to typing or not quite early in their career, and then spend the rest of it rationalizing The Correct Choice to themselves and others. He's certainly right about this. I can't wrap my head around why anyone wouldn't want types in their program* The types still exist you just didn'…

I actually don't relate to this statement at all. My college courses were filled with Python, Java, and C#. I loved python. I hated C# and Java even more. I learned PHP in my own free time. I then went on and happily cut my teeth on dynamic languages for the next decade. I dabbled occasionally with typed languages, but it wasn't until Typescript was forced upon me by a respected coworker that I was able to recognize…

I think typescript's type inference and structural typing is a big part of how it doesn't get in the way of writing code. I've always preferred the safety of static language, but understood the productivity benefits of dynamic languages. With typescript I feel I get the best of both worlds, as you only need to add types where they're vague, and structural types let you express more in objects without needing heavier class polymorphism all over the place.

Re: Turbo 8 is dropping TypeScript

#79

Post by etler »

bil7 wrote: post #3

My least favourite thing about vanilla JS is finding out at runtime that I made a typo. That's an annoying thing that TS completely solves, among many others. I really don't see how you could use TS for any amount of time and wish to revert back. >Things that should be easy become hard, and things that are hard become `any`. No thanks! Denouncing a type system because you refuse to use it correctly seems short sighte…

The benefits of typescript when refactoring is immense. I have a really hard time understanding how someone could not see the net productivity gain if they've experienced refactoring in typescript vs JavaScript.

Re: Turbo 8 is dropping TypeScript

#80

Post by etler »

bottlepalm wrote: post #17
bil7 wrote: post #3

My least favourite thing about vanilla JS is finding out at runtime that I made a typo. That's an annoying thing that TS completely solves, among many others. I really don't see how you could use TS for any amount of time and wish to revert back. >Things that should be easy become hard, and things that are hard become `any`. No thanks! Denouncing a type system because you refuse to use it correctly seems short sighte…

I often wonder if people who have trouble typing things, or have to us the 'any' type, ever really learned how to program.

I find that areas that are hard to type are a code smell indicating potentially unstable API design. It can be pretty tricky adding types to a JavaScript project as the lack of types can lead to some very side effecty apis that can be very difficult or impossible to add full type safety to.

My impression is that people running into these problems are trying to add declaration files to JavaScript code, but if you use typescript throughout I've not run into these problems.

Anything I find hard to type is simply a hard problem to solve in the first place and the type system helps me rethink the problem to find safer and more elegant API designs.

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