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An Internet of PHP

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Re: An Internet of PHP

#311

Post by gregjor »

Einenlum wrote: post #308
gregjor wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Identifying the technologies behind a web site involves a lot more than looking at Apache's mod_php headers (which you can and should turn off for security reasons). The tools for figuring out what runs a site actually do a really good job by looking for multiple identifying features. Marketers and SEO people use tools like BuiltWith and Wappalyzer (and many others, most of them not free). You may not know about thos…

Thank you for your comment. I was definitely wrong about the different methods used. This is why I love Hacker News. Always nice to learn something. I still think the stats they provide are a bit weird since there is no "unknown" category. If they can't find the backend technology used for 5% of websites, it changes the whole result, and from what I have seen they don't provide this information. But your really nice…

I don’t see an “unknown” category. A large number of unknowns could skew the results if we had reason to believe those mostly represent non-PHP sites. Do we have any reason to think those unknown sites show a different distribution than the known sites? Do enough unknown sites exist to meaningfully affect the results?

Using your 5% example, supposing that 5% unknown includes no PHP sites, that only brings the PHP percentage down a little. It doesn’t change the main point that PHP dominates by a wide margin.

Re: An Internet of PHP

#312

Post by gadelat »

finder83 wrote: post #307
okeuro49 wrote: post #110

I like PHP, because it has a familiar C-like syntax and great tooling, like composer, and frameworks, like Symfony. The language has warts, but it's improving. I think its strength is its architecture, namely shared-nothing state and concurrency at the web-request level. [1] [1] https://slack.engineering/taking-php-seriously/

Maybe I'm missing something, but I disagree with the tooling comment. Composer is horrendously slow, taking on the order of multiple minutes just to do a update often times. This is just my experience, but I'd much rather take mix, cargo, or yarn any day. xdebug, while it works, also feels antiquated. Trying to get it working in a new system or project can take quite a while. Again, compared to python or node's debug…

composer 1 was slow, composer 2 (released 3 years ago) is fast

Re: An Internet of PHP

#313

Post by Einenlum »

gregjor wrote: post #311
Einenlum wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your comment. I was definitely wrong about the different methods used. This is why I love Hacker News. Always nice to learn something. I still think the stats they provide are a bit weird since there is no "unknown" category. If they can't find the backend technology used for 5% of websites, it changes the whole result, and from what I have seen they don't provide this information. But your really nice…

I don’t see an “unknown” category. A large number of unknowns could skew the results if we had reason to believe those mostly represent non-PHP sites. Do we have any reason to think those unknown sites show a different distribution than the known sites? Do enough unknown sites exist to meaningfully affect the results? Using your 5% example, supposing that 5% unknown includes no PHP sites, that only brings the PHP per…

Well, it seems like a good part of the analyzer is about some "leaks" or specific behaviors from a language that could give us some tells about what technology is used. I checked Wappalyzer's code (at least the last commit before it went private: https://github.com/dochne/wappalyzer) and PHP gives more tells (https://github.com/dochne/wappalyzer/blob/main/src/technolog...) than Python for example (https://github.com/dochne/wappalyzer/blob/main/src/technolog...).

Some technologies seem to give more tells than others. Which means some technologies could be way more invisible than others. I am not sure we can suppose the known and unknown technologies have the same ratio.

I quickly checked some websites with BuiltWith and Wappalyzer and from my personal totally unscientific and small sample data, they seem to detect more easily PHP than other languages like Python.

Again, I don't know. But I took 5% to be optimistic. It could be 30% or 50%. And then the whole picture changes.

Edit: Funny thing, it even adds PHP to some sites I know (almost for sure) don't use PHP. Like GitHub using Ruby (true) and PHP with Drupal (???).

Re: An Internet of PHP

#314

Post by coldtea »

cutler wrote: post #277
coldtea wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not to nitpick but choosing a programming language isn't a minor decision In the grand scheme of things, talking solely about software projects not life in general, it kind of is. Most modern languages, are interchangeable, and projects of most kinds have been done with all of them succesfully. As long as the programmers for the chosen language are available, and the libs you want are there, for startups doing some…

Working with Clojure is a world apart compared with any of the others listed.

In the end of the day, not that different.

Besides, I included CL there.

Re: An Internet of PHP

#315

Post by voidwtf »

zmxz wrote: post #130
voidwtf wrote: post #117

This is great, and I'm glad for the PHP developers out there. But if I go job hunting, it's not PHP skills that offer the highest earning potential. At least not that I've encountered. How much revenue generation occurs on PHP? I'll cede the argument about the e-commerce platforms and CRMs, but I'm just not convinced that PHP is where a budding developer should be focusing their efforts. You enter the business/corpor…

I was job hunting this year, I'm a long-time PHP developer (since '99). It wasn't the language, it's everything around it. It's knowing frontend and how it works, it's knowing about cloud/operating systems, databases, 3rd party integration, IAM, SSO and the list goes on. These skills are applicable everywhere, next to any language. Compensation I was offered revolved around the ability to be non-invasive towards youn…

I completely agree that it's not just the programming language, it's the ability to understand and apply concepts that will make a great developer. Furthermore, you're right on the money when it comes to applying those concepts to integrate them into a solution (re: "loud/operating systems, databases, 3rd party integration, IAM, SSO, [etc...]).

I was more focused on where I think one's energies early into their career should be directed if they want the best chance at advancement and integrating those solutions in the corporate space. Yes, those solutions are integrated in PHP for various projects, but not as often in the applications that are running your day-to-day corporate operations.

I've used and developed in PHP for many web projects. I've used and developed in .NET/MVC and Java/Tomcat for many web projects.

I've used and developed in .NET for many desktop/server/infrastructure projects. I've used and developed in PHP for a single infrastructure project, some custom development for pfSense integration (which was horrifying, running as root, hodgepodge scripts).

Objectively, the evidence I've seen, appears to indicate that a developer with skills in any other mainstream language has more opportunities for employment and a greater salary.

Re: An Internet of PHP

#316

Post by gregjor »

Einenlum wrote: post #313
gregjor wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see an “unknown” category. A large number of unknowns could skew the results if we had reason to believe those mostly represent non-PHP sites. Do we have any reason to think those unknown sites show a different distribution than the known sites? Do enough unknown sites exist to meaningfully affect the results? Using your 5% example, supposing that 5% unknown includes no PHP sites, that only brings the PHP per…

Well, it seems like a good part of the analyzer is about some "leaks" or specific behaviors from a language that could give us some tells about what technology is used. I checked Wappalyzer's code (at least the last commit before it went private: https://github.com/dochne/wappalyzer ) and PHP gives more tells ( https://github.com/dochne/wappalyzer/blob/main/src/technolog... ) than Python for example ( https://github.…

PHP probably gets used in low-price shared hosting setups or managed hosting more than other languages, where those tells will show up because the developer can't change the Apache or PHP configuration files. And of course the big PHP numbers come from WordPress, which has its own tells. Developers don't necessarily choose WordPress -- the customer chooses it or starts with it and that's what developers have to work with.

More interesting to me than the actual breakdown by language is the reaction from developers when this article or something like it gets published. I look at PHP and every other language I've had to learn and use in my career (a lot of them, I started 40 years ago) as tools to get a job done. I don't get personally invested in languages or tools. I don't identify as a "PHP developer" or "Go developer" or "Javascript developer." I write code and manage systems to make money. What language or tools I decide to use (or more often have to use because someone got to decide already) makes little difference. PHP got popular because it was free (as opposed to ASP and ColdFusion, which were not) and was less inscrutable than Perl. As a long-time C programmer with experience on ASP, ColdFusion, and Perl I had no trouble learning PHP. I likewise had no trouble learning Ruby and Rails, Python, Javascript, and Go. All of those will eventually fade into the world of legacy tools, along with everything else I've learned and used. I don't care, I don't have any part of my personality or ego invested in them. I don't get how other developers get so invested, call themselves "Rust programmers" or whatever and then get hostile and defensive. I guess that's human nature -- I see Tesla owners identifying with their car brand, and I remember the cult around the Saturn cars. I interpret a lot of the apparent insecurity and hostility as inexperience, but it seems to go beyond that into a kind of programmer identity politics.

If PHP dominates public web sites, so what? That has no effect on what tools I choose to learn or use, or how I value my skills, or much of anything that I might care about. I read all the time about how many people use Python, how many jobs are out there for Python programmers, and that makes no difference to me. If I get a client using Python all I care about is solving their business problems and getting paid for my expertise, not what language I have to use.

Re: An Internet of PHP

#317

Post by Einenlum »

gregjor wrote: post #316
Einenlum wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it seems like a good part of the analyzer is about some "leaks" or specific behaviors from a language that could give us some tells about what technology is used. I checked Wappalyzer's code (at least the last commit before it went private: https://github.com/dochne/wappalyzer ) and PHP gives more tells ( https://github.com/dochne/wappalyzer/blob/main/src/technolog... ) than Python for example ( https://github.…

PHP probably gets used in low-price shared hosting setups or managed hosting more than other languages, where those tells will show up because the developer can't change the Apache or PHP configuration files. And of course the big PHP numbers come from WordPress, which has its own tells. Developers don't necessarily choose WordPress -- the customer chooses it or starts with it and that's what developers have to work…

I agree. I don't think this way either. And I wouldn't be bothered with someone telling me X or Y has the main marketshare on the web. I just don't like when figures are thrown at me and the methodology is questionable. Would be the case for any topic.

Re: An Internet of PHP

#318

Post by niscocity35 »

ix101 wrote: post #201
voidwtf wrote: post #117

This is great, and I'm glad for the PHP developers out there. But if I go job hunting, it's not PHP skills that offer the highest earning potential. At least not that I've encountered. How much revenue generation occurs on PHP? I'll cede the argument about the e-commerce platforms and CRMs, but I'm just not convinced that PHP is where a budding developer should be focusing their efforts. You enter the business/corpor…

https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/devecosystem-2021/php/ Still seems to be most popular in France, doesn't appear to be dying off there... Interestingly it's gaining popularity. Curious why that would be.

Symfony is from France.

Re: An Internet of PHP

#319

Post by gjvc »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #266
gjvc wrote: post #246

As soon as WASM is able to draw to the canvas, we can stop using the DOM for anything and everything and pick up where we left off with GUI development in the 1990s.

Dealing with text would still be a huge problem. Drawing text on canvas and making it selectable is still a hard problem, you have to think about all the intricacies of text (character widths, spacing, RTL, etc)

Very good point. This would require some standard library approach for much of this, which may or may not be feasible.

Re: An Internet of PHP

#320

Post by 59nadir »

voidwtf wrote: post #117

This is great, and I'm glad for the PHP developers out there. But if I go job hunting, it's not PHP skills that offer the highest earning potential. At least not that I've encountered. How much revenue generation occurs on PHP? I'll cede the argument about the e-commerce platforms and CRMs, but I'm just not convinced that PHP is where a budding developer should be focusing their efforts. You enter the business/corpor…

> This is great, and I'm glad for the PHP developers out there. But if I go job hunting, it's not PHP skills that offer the highest earning potential. At least not that I've encountered.

PHP has indeed ranked close to the lowest in average salary in StackOverflow surveys for years. The amount of templated thrown-together solutions for the exact same site as yesterday with different branding vs. custom solutions probably is the root of this.

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