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AtariAge and Atari

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Re: AtariAge and Atari

#61

Post by TMWNN »

linker3000 wrote: post #60
rbanffy wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand SIO is better and Fujinet can do things on the Atari that are not possible on the C64, and can’t pretend to be a printer or modem because the 64 only used the disk port for disks. OTOH, while autobooting or running unmodified software is not an option, nothing prevents the modification of existing software to run with the Fujinet’s extra features. The very basic stuff, the ability to load software off a…

The 64's serial (IEC) port uses device numbering to support daisy-chained disk drives, printers and other devices. https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Device_number . Fujinet on the C64 supports modem comms - the implementation is based on the Meatloaf project: https://meatloaf.cc/

Thanks for clarifying to rbanffy about emulating the printer; you beat me to it.

I watched the Meatloaf videos; thank you. Does this mean that FujiNet hardware for the C64 will connect to both the serial and user ports? If so that would solve both the backward compatibility and throughput issues, at the cost of more hardware (but understandably so, given the C64's hardware).

PS - What is the upper throughput limit on the Commodore serial bus? I know it's a serial version of IEEE-488, but I assumed that the upper limit is lower than what is required for modem access. But now that I think about it, the throughput for disk access (even if brokenly slow by default) must be much higher than that of contemporary modems, right? To put another way, is there anything—whether throughput, or signaling/traffic—inherently preventing modems on the serial port à la SIO?

Re: AtariAge and Atari

#62

Post by JetSetIlly »

MenhirMike wrote: post #40
justin66 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird that you've said so much and yet you're apparently not aware of the upcoming 2600+. https://atari.com/products/atari-2600-plus

That's because I completely forgot about it immediately after seeing it's just a Linux Emulation Box with a cartridge slot, so more like a Hyperkin RetroN instead of a Mister/Analogue FPGA-based product. I do wonder how compatible it will be with expansion chips (like the DPC in Pitfall 2). I assume they have an internal list of recognized games, but I wonder what happens if someone wires up their own homebrew game w…

Unfortunately, it's not compatible with DPC or DPC+, CDFJ+, etc. The emulator works by "dumping" the ROM binary from the inserted cartridge. This is fine for simple cartridges but for more advanced bank switching technologies it's difficult to do correctly and for processor-cartridges it's impossible.

As you suggest, one way around that is to fingerprint the cartridge and then to load a binary into the emulator from internal memory (if they're using Stella then the emulator is capable of emulating the processors on those chips) but I don't believe that is an option provided by the 2600+. And if it was, it's a very limiting option for the end user because new homebrew games wouldn't work.

Re: AtariAge and Atari

#64

Post by justin66 »

JetSetIlly wrote: post #62
MenhirMike wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because I completely forgot about it immediately after seeing it's just a Linux Emulation Box with a cartridge slot, so more like a Hyperkin RetroN instead of a Mister/Analogue FPGA-based product. I do wonder how compatible it will be with expansion chips (like the DPC in Pitfall 2). I assume they have an internal list of recognized games, but I wonder what happens if someone wires up their own homebrew game w…

Unfortunately, it's not compatible with DPC or DPC+, CDFJ+, etc. The emulator works by "dumping" the ROM binary from the inserted cartridge. This is fine for simple cartridges but for more advanced bank switching technologies it's difficult to do correctly and for processor-cartridges it's impossible. As you suggest, one way around that is to fingerprint the cartridge and then to load a binary into the emulator from…

Are processor cartridges at all common, even among homebrew games? Just curious.

I think we need to be reasonable about how much magic we really expect them to put into this thing, since running Atari and Activision cartridges, like the 2600 (and 7800!) of old, is what most people would expect the machine to do. On the other hand... if they make the machine easily hackable, that might be pretty great, and earn this version of Atari a little respect.

Re: AtariAge and Atari

#65

Post by JetSetIlly »

justin66 wrote: post #64
JetSetIlly wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, it's not compatible with DPC or DPC+, CDFJ+, etc. The emulator works by "dumping" the ROM binary from the inserted cartridge. This is fine for simple cartridges but for more advanced bank switching technologies it's difficult to do correctly and for processor-cartridges it's impossible. As you suggest, one way around that is to fingerprint the cartridge and then to load a binary into the emulator from…

Are processor cartridges at all common, even among homebrew games? Just curious. I think we need to be reasonable about how much magic we really expect them to put into this thing, since running Atari and Activision cartridges, like the 2600 (and 7800!) of old, is what most people would expect the machine to do. On the other hand... if they make the machine easily hackable, that might be pretty great, and earn this v…

Yeah. Many of the most popular games released in recent years have contained an ARM chip. As it happens Atari Age have removed many of those games from distribution (in readiness for this takeover by Atari) because they weren't properly licenced. A good exception to this rule is LodeRunner which has been licenced and uses an onboard ARM.

If the market for this product is people who only want to play the older ROMs on a HDTV then I'm sure the 2600+ is a fine product.

Re: AtariAge and Atari

#66

Post by MenhirMike »

JetSetIlly wrote: post #65
justin66 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are processor cartridges at all common, even among homebrew games? Just curious. I think we need to be reasonable about how much magic we really expect them to put into this thing, since running Atari and Activision cartridges, like the 2600 (and 7800!) of old, is what most people would expect the machine to do. On the other hand... if they make the machine easily hackable, that might be pretty great, and earn this v…

Yeah. Many of the most popular games released in recent years have contained an ARM chip. As it happens Atari Age have removed many of those games from distribution (in readiness for this takeover by Atari) because they weren't properly licenced. A good exception to this rule is LodeRunner which has been licenced and uses an onboard ARM. If the market for this product is people who only want to play the older ROMs on…

I am not sure what the real market is then, though. If it's for people that want to re-live their memories, then a system with built-in games (of which plenty exist) makes much more sense, or one with a digital store (so, the VCS, or digital collections like Atari 50). Whereas people that still held on to their cartridges and want to play them seem to be more the crowd that kept up with newer and homebrew games as well?

Maybe I'm projecting from myself, but if I'm that kind of enthusiast that held on and wants to play their actual cartridges, I'd expect compatibility with any cartridges I might still buy in the future.

(Then again, both the RetroN and Polymega seem to do well enough, so what do I know, apart from not liking the idea of these systems as half-baked in-between solutions.)

Re: AtariAge and Atari

#67

Post by JetSetIlly »

MenhirMike wrote: post #66
JetSetIlly wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Many of the most popular games released in recent years have contained an ARM chip. As it happens Atari Age have removed many of those games from distribution (in readiness for this takeover by Atari) because they weren't properly licenced. A good exception to this rule is LodeRunner which has been licenced and uses an onboard ARM. If the market for this product is people who only want to play the older ROMs on…

I am not sure what the real market is then, though. If it's for people that want to re-live their memories, then a system with built-in games (of which plenty exist) makes much more sense, or one with a digital store (so, the VCS, or digital collections like Atari 50). Whereas people that still held on to their cartridges and want to play them seem to be more the crowd that kept up with newer and homebrew games as we…

I agree with you. I don't begrudge the 2600+ but it's not one for me.

It seems to me that compatibility with any cartridge would require a recreation of the actual VCS hardware. That sounds expensive to me and is probably why Atari haven't gone down this route. But as you say, that leads to a half-baked solution.

The other option is an emulator that can communicate with the cartridge in real time - but that doesn't exist and I doubt Atari have gone to the trouble of making one (we're all assuming they're using Stella at this point, but I don't think that's been confirmed).

Re: AtariAge and Atari

#68

Post by ShadowBanThis01 »

ddingus wrote: post #59
ShadowBanThis01 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool, thanks for the reference! In the early '90s I wanted to get some drawings I did with the Atari Touch Tablet into my Windows computers. So I looked at the specs for the BMP format and learned enough 6502 assembly language to do the conversion on the Atari. Then I hooked the Atari modem and a Windows computer up to phone jacks in my parents' house, fired up TinyBBS (if I remember correctly) on the Windows compute…

You were! People moved data in many ways didn't they? Print it out. I moved some code and data that way. Just type it in again. Some people made cables and toggled lines in the controller ports. Audio. Who knows what else?

Ha, the controller-ports comment reminded me of a project I built that used the Atari's joystick port to sample audio. You could increase the A/D sampling rate of the joystick port to 8kHz, so with a simple transistor circuit you could plug an audio jack into something and sample it (with the program I typed in from whatever magazine it was, probably Antic).

Of course with only 32ish K available, you weren't sampling much. I think I probably still have the first one I captured: "White Horse" by Laid Back. Now there's a timestamp.

BTW, one of the drawings I converted from the Atari wound up in the documentation for a multi-million-dollar manufacturing system sold by Andersen Consulting (now Accenture) in the '90s.

Re: AtariAge and Atari

#69

Post by ddingus »

TMWNN wrote: post #61
linker3000 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 64's serial (IEC) port uses device numbering to support daisy-chained disk drives, printers and other devices. https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Device_number . Fujinet on the C64 supports modem comms - the implementation is based on the Meatloaf project: https://meatloaf.cc/

Thanks for clarifying to rbanffy about emulating the printer; you beat me to it. I watched the Meatloaf videos; thank you. Does this mean that FujiNet hardware for the C64 will connect to both the serial and user ports? If so that would solve both the backward compatibility and throughput issues, at the cost of more hardware (but understandably so, given the C64's hardware). PS - What is the upper throughput limit on…

I thought this was about the VIC badlines inhibiting faster serial comms due to a bug in the serial chip. It's fuzzy, but some things in the C64 are bit banged, and the badlines necessary for video DMA make that difficult at higher speeds.

Re: AtariAge and Atari

#70

Post by ddingus »

ShadowBanThis01 wrote: post #68
ddingus wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were! People moved data in many ways didn't they? Print it out. I moved some code and data that way. Just type it in again. Some people made cables and toggled lines in the controller ports. Audio. Who knows what else?

Ha, the controller-ports comment reminded me of a project I built that used the Atari's joystick port to sample audio. You could increase the A/D sampling rate of the joystick port to 8kHz, so with a simple transistor circuit you could plug an audio jack into something and sample it (with the program I typed in from whatever magazine it was, probably Antic). Of course with only 32ish K available, you weren't sampling…

That's great stuff!! I had my HAM transmitter connected to those controller ports.

Was a great resource, especially in the older machines that had 4 ports.

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