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Why isn't chess popular in Japan?

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Re: Why isn't chess popular in Japan?

#61

Post by freilanzer »

RetroTechie wrote: post #51
Jigsy wrote: post #9

Probably because they have Shogi, which is also fun to play. They also like Go, which I hate. Absolutely love Mahjong, though. (Thanks Yakuza series!)

> They also like Go, which I hate. To each their own... :-) What I like about Go, is its combination of simple rules, contrasted with the rich set of ever-more advanced tactics. And (using handicaps) players of different skill can still enjoy a somewhat-balanced game. There are just a few basic rules (board sizes, placement of stones, groups, freedoms, atari, capture) that are easily explained. Beginners may think it…

I find Go just much more elegant than Chess. Having different pieces with different rules just feels clunky.

Re: Why isn't chess popular in Japan?

#62

Post by emporas »

kenhwang wrote: post #42
Pxtl wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic Xiangqi would be the best because the king is least mobile and so there's basically no chasing.

That's why my dad never got into chess. He said the openings were all really routine/reactive, and the endgame was way too much chasing. To him, it was fairly obvious who was going to win after the midgame if it isn't evenly matched, but you're still spending most of the time repeating the same moves to advance pawns and pretty much waiting for mistakes in the endgame. Xiangqi has a much more tactical opening, longer…

>He said the openings were all really routine/reactive, and the endgame was way too much chasing.

Openings in normal chess are indeed pointless memorization. I would never have gotten into chess as well, if i had to memorize openings. However Chess960 nowadays exists, and it is thriving. Granted 15 years ago, no one played that variant.

Chess 960 expands the surface area of opening move possibilities by a factor of a thousand (960 to be more accurate). So if someone wants to memorize openings for 1 move, i.e. 2 plys, he has to memorize 2.000 possibilities. If someone wants to memorize 3 moves ahead, i.e. 6 plys, he has to memorize 6.000 possibilities.

In normal chess memorizing ten or fifteen moves ahead (i.e. 20 or 30 plys) is pretty much the norm.

>and the endgame was way too much chasing.

With all due respect to your dad, that's nonsense. Endgames almost always have the potential to outsmart and outmanoeuvre the opponent, like any other part of the game.

See a game [1] i played against goga-magoga ranked 200 in the site, in which for 70 moves i was always losing or equal, and i won the last 3 moves. Endgames are so unintuitive, almost like programming, that even the best players in the world get confused and fatigued by the complexity.

[1]https://lichess.org/ZPT5FxJb/black#141

Re: Why isn't chess popular in Japan?

#63

Post by mcv »

Another way to ask this question is: why is go less popular outside east asia? It's huge in Japan, China and Korea, and although it has its fans in Europe and the US, it's much more niche there.

I've got to admit, since I got kids I moved back from go to chess. Somehow it's more accessible, because everybody here knows chess.

Re: Why isn't chess popular in Japan?

#64

Post by kenhwang »

emporas wrote: post #62
kenhwang wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why my dad never got into chess. He said the openings were all really routine/reactive, and the endgame was way too much chasing. To him, it was fairly obvious who was going to win after the midgame if it isn't evenly matched, but you're still spending most of the time repeating the same moves to advance pawns and pretty much waiting for mistakes in the endgame. Xiangqi has a much more tactical opening, longer…

>He said the openings were all really routine/reactive, and the endgame was way too much chasing. Openings in normal chess are indeed pointless memorization. I would never have gotten into chess as well, if i had to memorize openings. However Chess960 nowadays exists, and it is thriving. Granted 15 years ago, no one played that variant. Chess 960 expands the surface area of opening move possibilities by a factor of a…

> Endgames almost always have the potential to outsmart and outmanoeuvre the opponent, like any other part of the game.

In an evenly matched endgame, sure. I think those endgames are fun, but rare when playing in person since there's usually a skill mismatch. He was complaining about the typical game where there's a mismatched endgame where one side has an obvious advantage but there's still a bunch of chase to close out the game.

There's no doubt that the endgame can get complex, but with chess a different kind of problem solving than the rest of the game and one that I understand why people don't find it fun.

I always thought there was a bit of irony with how much he disliked the chess endgame, because he was hopelessly addicted to playing go which is not that unlike to a pawns-only chess endgame in thinking.

Re: Why isn't chess popular in Japan?

#65

Post by mcv »

freilanzer wrote: post #61
RetroTechie wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They also like Go, which I hate. To each their own... :-) What I like about Go, is its combination of simple rules, contrasted with the rich set of ever-more advanced tactics. And (using handicaps) players of different skill can still enjoy a somewhat-balanced game. There are just a few basic rules (board sizes, placement of stones, groups, freedoms, atari, capture) that are easily explained. Beginners may think it…

I find Go just much more elegant than Chess. Having different pieces with different rules just feels clunky.

I think Go is about as simple and elegant as a board game can possibly be. And yet it has immense strategic depth unmatched by any other game.

Re: Why isn't chess popular in Japan?

#67

Post by offices »

makeitdouble wrote: post #18
Hamuko wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is riichi mahjong even that popular?

I don't know for riichi mahjong, but "mahjong" is pretty popular, yes. But the betting aspect puts it probably closer to poker than chess or other games where money is rarely involved.

"mahjong" is riichi mahjong in Japan

Re: Why isn't chess popular in Japan?

#68

Post by emporas »

kenhwang wrote: post #64
emporas wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He said the openings were all really routine/reactive, and the endgame was way too much chasing. Openings in normal chess are indeed pointless memorization. I would never have gotten into chess as well, if i had to memorize openings. However Chess960 nowadays exists, and it is thriving. Granted 15 years ago, no one played that variant. Chess 960 expands the surface area of opening move possibilities by a factor of a…

> Endgames almost always have the potential to outsmart and outmanoeuvre the opponent, like any other part of the game. In an evenly matched endgame, sure. I think those endgames are fun, but rare when playing in person since there's usually a skill mismatch. He was complaining about the typical game where there's a mismatched endgame where one side has an obvious advantage but there's still a bunch of chase to close…

Endgames get sometimes boring indeed, but are other games exciting all the time? Soccer for example has it's exciting moments and it's boring moments.

That's why the endgame is called the technical part of the game. More like an electrician connecting electrodes together, or maybe programming, the end result might be beautiful, regardless of some boring moments.

Re: Why isn't chess popular in Japan?

#69

Post by ido »

mcv wrote: post #63

Another way to ask this question is: why is go less popular outside east asia? It's huge in Japan, China and Korea, and although it has its fans in Europe and the US, it's much more niche there. I've got to admit, since I got kids I moved back from go to chess. Somehow it's more accessible, because everybody here knows chess.

Tradition + first movers advantage/network effect. We have a centuries old tradition of playing chess in europe, we dont have a tradition of playing go (and vice versa for east asia). And as you said, once everyone already knows how to play chess it's much easier to also play it vs a relatively unknown game (part of the reason why D&D is the most popular tabletop RPG - everybody knows D&D!)

Re: Why isn't chess popular in Japan?

#70

Post by mudita »

tromp wrote: post #55
hakuseki wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How were these numbers arrived at?

I think the numbers are taken from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_complexity We discuss the numbers for Go in the introduction of our paper https://matthieuw.github.io/go-games-number/AGoogolplexOfGoG...

I just wanted to say, I stumbled upon your website a few years ago through the Tromp-Taylor rules of Go and found the things you do impressive and inspiring. It’s a nice surprise to see you commenting here.
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