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Mojo is available for local download

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Re: Mojo is available for local download

#151

Post by mathisfun123 »

qaq wrote: post #149
mathisfun123 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you looked at the team? i am friends/former co-workers with several people on the "team". doesn't mean i can't/won't/shouldn't call out startup hype when i see it. and again: the criticism has been borne out because this comment chain is off an example of an epic fail. > This is pretty early in the development you don't applaud someone that says they're going to do something just because they're fancy. like is…

I don't see hype they outlined a roadmap and are working on it. Not sure what fancy means in this context. Swift Objective-C story is pretty much inline with this work. Come to think of it I don't really remember Chris not delivering on a project. If fancy means people who created and delivered on multiple very challenging projects I guess they are fancy.

why do people do this?

> I don't see hype they outlined a roadmap and are working on it.

they have been touting superset compatibility very loudly and then quietly writing conservative docs and roadmaps. you really don't see that or are you just bending over backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt?

> Not sure what fancy means in this context

you don't? then what exactly are you implying/suggesting here:

> Have you looked at the team?

moving on;

> Come to think of it I don't really remember Chris not delivering on a project.

already in my memory/experience (which is only a couple of years in this area): swift4TF and chisel (or FIRRTL or whatever). you can deflect and blame org charts or whatever but if you're gonna make the rounds on the talkshow/podcast circuit and take credit on the upside you gotta eat the blame on the downside.

i'm sure chris lattner is a great, smart, genius person. i'm sure everyone at modular is. i'm sure 100MM is a whole lot of runway to deliver. but they haven't delivered yet so their claims about being a superset and/or 35,000,000xxxxx perf gains are all (at least by me) taken with a grain of salt.

Re: Mojo is available for local download

#152

Post by qaq »

mathisfun123 wrote: post #151
qaq wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see hype they outlined a roadmap and are working on it. Not sure what fancy means in this context. Swift Objective-C story is pretty much inline with this work. Come to think of it I don't really remember Chris not delivering on a project. If fancy means people who created and delivered on multiple very challenging projects I guess they are fancy.

why do people do this? > I don't see hype they outlined a roadmap and are working on it. they have been touting superset compatibility very loudly and then quietly writing conservative docs and roadmaps. you really don't see that or are you just bending over backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt? > Not sure what fancy means in this context you don't? then what exactly are you implying/suggesting here: > Hav…

I def give them benefit of the doubt. Swift4TF totally outside of what I do so no clue to what extent it was delivered. Maybe I am just too fond of the idea of having Rust features with Python like syntax and not paying enough attention to the fully compatible part as it's not something I personally care about.

Re: Mojo is available for local download

#153

Post by mathisfun123 »

qaq wrote: post #152
mathisfun123 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do people do this? > I don't see hype they outlined a roadmap and are working on it. they have been touting superset compatibility very loudly and then quietly writing conservative docs and roadmaps. you really don't see that or are you just bending over backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt? > Not sure what fancy means in this context you don't? then what exactly are you implying/suggesting here: > Hav…

I def give them benefit of the doubt. Swift4TF totally outside of what I do so no clue to what extent it was delivered. Maybe I am just too fond of the idea of having Rust features with Python like syntax and not paying enough attention to the fully compatible part as it's not something I personally care about.

> Swift4TF totally outside of what I do so no clue to what extent it was delivered.

it wasn't

https://forums.fast.ai/t/where-is-the-future-of-fastai-swift...

> not paying enough attention to the fully compatible part as it's not something I personally care about

then maybe you shouldn't be bullying me into agreeing with you? dontcha think?

Re: Mojo is available for local download

#154

Post by pushfoo »

SirensOfTitan wrote: post #72
lambda_garden wrote: post #32

Why are people so enthused about Python syntax? Some problems off the top of my head: - The lack of new variable declaration keyword makes scopes less explicit. nonlocal is not simpler in the large than `let x = ...` - The lack of multi-line lambdas is very limiting for anyone coming from JS, C#, Rust, Kotlin... heck even Java - The ternary operator (... if ... else ...) is needlessly different for other mainstream l…

Yeah, I highly dislike working with python, everything is special syntax or different for no reason. In addition to what you mentioned: * try catch is different keywords from virtually all other languages. * walrus tusks, the general order in list comprehensions generally where bindings come after expression * typing is awful, unsound in a lot of cases, there’s a ton of special non straightforward plugins in mypy. Th…

> typing is awful, unsound in a lot of cases

tl;dr:

1. This is my biggest issue with Python.

2. Are there any tolerable solutions you've found?

3. Are there any non-Python languages you'd recommend?

The root of Python's typing issues seems to be ad-hoc syntax recycling as a stand-in for a thoroughly planned type system. Understandably, Guido and others advise using Protocol types to make up for earlier design decisions. It sort of works, but:

1. It's effectively an unspoken deprecation for parts of the standard library

2. Current design choices create new problems

3. It still doesn't reliably prevent runtime errors

Things break down further as you move beyond the built-ins:

1. Pydantic and other tools come with their own problems

2. Ugly things happen at boundary lines in APIs (ctypes vs OOP)

3. All of these get even worse as Sphinx gets involved

The last two items came up in a recent PR discussion. The other commenter's point seemed correct: simple, specific, and rigid types prevent problems. But then why should we have Generic and Union at all?

I'm still going to use Python when necessary, but it makes the grass look very green near languages like OCaml and Elm. If Rider can make .NET's packaging tolerable, maybe F# would be good too. Are there any others you'd suggest?

Re: Mojo is available for local download

#155

Post by qaq »

mathisfun123 wrote: post #153
qaq wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I def give them benefit of the doubt. Swift4TF totally outside of what I do so no clue to what extent it was delivered. Maybe I am just too fond of the idea of having Rust features with Python like syntax and not paying enough attention to the fully compatible part as it's not something I personally care about.

> Swift4TF totally outside of what I do so no clue to what extent it was delivered. it wasn't https://forums.fast.ai/t/where-is-the-future-of-fastai-swift... > not paying enough attention to the fully compatible part as it's not something I personally care about then maybe you shouldn't be bullying me into agreeing with you? dontcha think?

I am bullying you ? Are you for real?

Re: Mojo is available for local download

#156

Post by mathisfun123 »

qaq wrote: post #155
mathisfun123 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Swift4TF totally outside of what I do so no clue to what extent it was delivered. it wasn't https://forums.fast.ai/t/where-is-the-future-of-fastai-swift... > not paying enough attention to the fully compatible part as it's not something I personally care about then maybe you shouldn't be bullying me into agreeing with you? dontcha think?

I am bullying you ? Are you for real?

I'm just saying why try to convince me I'm wrong if you haven't been paying attention to the thing you're trying to convince me about? Like how does that make any sense?

Re: Mojo is available for local download

#157

Post by pavs »

mathisfun123 wrote: post #156
qaq wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am bullying you ? Are you for real?

I'm just saying why try to convince me I'm wrong if you haven't been paying attention to the thing you're trying to convince me about? Like how does that make any sense?

You were literally bullying this person and being very condescending and then turn around and accuse him of bullying you. Why is it ao hard for you to accept that some people might different opnions?

Re: Mojo is available for local download

#158

Post by mathisfun123 »

pavs wrote: post #157
mathisfun123 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just saying why try to convince me I'm wrong if you haven't been paying attention to the thing you're trying to convince me about? Like how does that make any sense?

You were literally bullying this person and being very condescending and then turn around and accuse him of bullying you. Why is it ao hard for you to accept that some people might different opnions?

> Why is it ao hard for you to accept that some people might different opnions?

you're passing over a very crucial detail here: this person's opinion consisted solely of

> Have you looked at the team?

they themselves finally admitted it at the end. this isn't so much an opinion as hero worship at best and fanaticism at worst.

Re: Mojo is available for local download

#159

Post by qaq »

mathisfun123 wrote: post #158
pavs wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were literally bullying this person and being very condescending and then turn around and accuse him of bullying you. Why is it ao hard for you to accept that some people might different opnions?

> Why is it ao hard for you to accept that some people might different opnions? you're passing over a very crucial detail here: this person's opinion consisted solely of > Have you looked at the team? they themselves finally admitted it at the end. this isn't so much an opinion as hero worship at best and fanaticism at worst.

That was not an opinion it was an honest question. People use past performance as an indicator for future performance thats not a very unusual concept and not really "hero worship at best and fanaticism at worst."

Re: Mojo is available for local download

#160

Post by roboquant »

smacke wrote: post #9

Didn't try downloading the SDK yet, but in the playground, seems like the "Python superset" advertisement does not hold (trying to define a class gives "error: classes not implemented yet"). Great to see progress in this space but I think the real killer feature of Mojo would be to run any existing Python program and allow programmers to incrementally adopt Mojo's syntax for targeted optimizations, and seems like we'…

They seem to have a very large task at hand and with a relative small team I cannot see them implementing all the missing Python functionality in a 1-2 year timeframe. Not only language features like classes, but also the standard library is a huge task.

And this is next to the superset features they want to implement which currently seem to take all the manpower.

100mn is a lot of money, but a problem is that developers that can contribute in this space are rare and expensive. Not something any developer can do.

But hopefully I’m wrong and it is more than yet another “colony on Mars” story to attract interest and invested tots.

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