Live data from Hacker News

I'm not good enough to work on open source software

journal.dedasys.com

61–70 of 77 posts

Re: I'm not good enough to work on open source software

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bravo and bingo. These are the exactly the frustrations I tend to feel as an unpaid, open-source coder. And the next level of the phenomenon is that the entire software industry has shifted its business model to avoid having to compete with piracy or open-source. There are now, to my knowledge, two major for-profit companies building their own PC operating systems: Microsoft and Apple. There are four or five building…

I think it might be instructive to think of what the world was like before the idea of letting people who create intellectual products maintain some ownership of (and therefore be more able to make a living from) their work: - Serfdom was still legal in most of Western Europe. - Professional artists occupied the same social rung as prostitutes. - An intellectual professional's primary option for making a living off h…

What times you are talking about? Professional creators - like composers, poets, etc. - existed long before Berne Convention. Of course, then conditions were different than they are now - J.S. Bach had to write a new cantata every week as the condition of his employment, and also teach Latin and singing to the young. Of course, what was good enough for J.S. Bach is definitely can not be good enough for a person named something like "Jay-Z" or "50 Cent", as the latters' art is much more valuable for the society than Bach's.

As for serving Powers That Be - most of the creative people do it right now, only Powers changed. Some time ago, most disposable income was in the hands of aristocracy and later rich merchants. So they were served. Now due to huge technological advances pretty much everybody has disposable income - so artists cater to everybody. Some of them still cater only to the richest, of course - everybody has his niche. But except for the distribution of the disposable income, not much changed.

Re: I'm not good enough to work on open source software

#62
post #60

For those interested in sustaining themselves by making open / libre software, I plan on dedicating my next summer to starting a cooperative for hackers. The basic idea is that if we can create a decentralized ecosystem for exchanging currency, ideas, and goods in an open and cooperative manner, we can solve our needs as hackers without resorting to non-free alternatives. You can find my early planning here: https://…

How do you solve taxes?

Let's rephrase the question: how do we solve taxes?

Re: I'm not good enough to work on open source software

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bravo and bingo. These are the exactly the frustrations I tend to feel as an unpaid, open-source coder. And the next level of the phenomenon is that the entire software industry has shifted its business model to avoid having to compete with piracy or open-source. There are now, to my knowledge, two major for-profit companies building their own PC operating systems: Microsoft and Apple. There are four or five building…

Now, another scary thought: what if someone stole the code and databases to your web-service? This exactly. It's easy for a community oriented around mostly around things like webapps, SaaS, enterprisey stuff to hop on the anti-IP bandwagon. It just so happens that there's no convenient ways of pirating their software.

Nothing would happen if somebody stole their software. Exactly nothing. You think if you somehow copied Zuckerberg's hard disk in 2004, you'd have the billion-dollar business now? No, you'd have a pile of 8-year-old useless code. The code doesn't matter, the people building the company and writing that code to accomodate specific (and rapidly changing) needs matter.

Re: I'm not good enough to work on open source software

#64
post #58
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdote time: My last big open source effort, Hecl, weighs in at something like 100K lines of code. LiberWriter, my first real "pay for it if you want to use it" project, doesn't quite pay me enough to live on, yet, but earns decent money at around 10% of the lines of code. I did make some money consulting on Hecl, so it's not a total loss, and I had fun with it, and learned a lot. But in terms of the money, there's…

Isn't that just saying that LiberWriter is a more successful product than Hecl? I mean, if Google or whoever wanted to base a service on Hecl, they would have hired you, right? My analogy was to startup funding, not sales, but I think it still holds. Certainly if you make something people want, people will pay you to develop it. I don't see a real problem with the model, though for obvious reasons the incentives are…

Several companies used Hecl code, including one that was later sold to BlackBerry, so there was some demand for it commercially, just that apparently the code was good enough or clear enough that they didn't need any further involvement from me.

My point is that for people to start hiring you at a high hourly rate, there's got to be a burning demand, whereas with a product or app, the costs are much lower, so it's easy to spread them around.

> Certainly if you make something people want, people will pay you to develop it

Only after a certain critical mass, that is a lot higher than what it is for a proprietary project, where all sales feed back into the project. I mean, I certainly don't pay people to develop Linux, Postgres, Ruby, Rails, gcc or any of the other projects I use, although I do try and contribute back where possible.

BTW, strange but true story: I probably made the most money off of Hecl doing a BlackBerry port for... of all people, PASOK, the Greek center-left political party. This was all before the country ran out of money, and I did get paid.

Re: I'm not good enough to work on open source software

#66
post #2

I wrote this after the 'PG has lost the plot' thread. I didn't like the title, but the content was fairly good. People really seem to have trouble visualizing "that which is not seen":-)

Bravo and bingo. These are the exactly the frustrations I tend to feel as an unpaid, open-source coder. And the next level of the phenomenon is that the entire software industry has shifted its business model to avoid having to compete with piracy or open-source. There are now, to my knowledge, two major for-profit companies building their own PC operating systems: Microsoft and Apple. There are four or five building…

Just a data point for you to consider - US and China have roughly equal manufacturing output now, despite US being in recession last years and China having 4 times more people. That is if we compare whole population, if we compare manufacturing sector it is 10 times difference in employees. So US workers right now are on average about 10 times more productive than Chinese workers (note I do not mean to imply anything bad about China or Chinese people - it's just statistical facts that do not reflect on anybody personally :). I would not describe this situation as "we're China's bitch" just yet. Prooflink: http://www.manufacturingdigital.com/news_archive/tags/us/chi...

Of course, China would improve. I hope so would US.

Re: I'm not good enough to work on open source software

#67
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you solve taxes?

Let's rephrase the question: how do we solve taxes?

In the UK: Taxes are complicated but mostly solved. Either your employers deduct taxes before you get your money or you are self-employed and pay an accountant to sort it out; and people you buy things from add taxes before you buy stuff. If you are rich you get an accountant and practice various forms of avoidance (legal, but those loopholes may close soon, and of dubious ethicality) to evasion (not legal).

Missing from the above description are people involved in barter economies. There are several barter economy systems in the UK. The UK tax collectors (HM Revenue and Customs) are clear: barter trades can be taxable.

Suggestion: Find an accountant that would like to work as part of a co-operative. The collective either has one big joint account (like a business) or lots of individual accounts - either way good accounting will legally minimise tax burden and help with other stuff.

Re: I'm not good enough to work on open source software

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very GNU GPL itself explicitly allows code licensed under it to be sold for money. What makes you think that code transferred for money cannot possibly be Free?

Everyone always says this, but the majority of the community is very much against you making money on it and will destroy any chances if you making any sort of profit by releasing the source for free (which is allowed under the license).

Most people can't compile software. Forking and releasing a compiled free version would be more likely to kill a project.

But then see also Pysol; a free open source program that was being sold by sneaky companies. The devs decided to stop releasing it.

(http://bytes.com/topic/python/answers/41344-pysol-using-qt-c...)

Re: I'm not good enough to work on open source software

#69
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's rephrase the question: how do we solve taxes?

In the UK: Taxes are complicated but mostly solved. Either your employers deduct taxes before you get your money or you are self-employed and pay an accountant to sort it out; and people you buy things from add taxes before you buy stuff. If you are rich you get an accountant and practice various forms of avoidance (legal, but those loopholes may close soon, and of dubious ethicality) to evasion (not legal). Missing…

Awesome, thanks for the suggestion. Do you suppose the accounting could also be automated, with help from an accountant, as part of the system that facilitates exchanges? My current thinking is to create a system that can be used by anyone, not just those within a single collective.

Re: I'm not good enough to work on open source software

#70
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You aren't giving examples of 1 OS kernels. Linus used to work for Transmeta (sorry if I misspelled the name) as a chips-and-assembly guy before they got enough charity funding to put him on full-time Linux kernel coding, remember? He started the kernel when he as a Master's student in Finland, too. It took until the late 2000s (after having started in 1992 or so) for the creator of Linux to be put on full-time payr…

>some projects cannot be done as day jobs >OS kernels It's funny you mention that one: My day job for a number of years to was to do linux kernel drivers and other patches. The fact that Linus didn't work fulltime on Linux seems to contradict your assertion that some projects require full time workers.

>The fact that Linus didn't work fulltime on Linux seems to contradict your assertion that some projects require full time workers.

I didn't make any such assertion. My assertion was that coders need full-time jobs.

Post reply on HN