Texas just got closer to blackouts than it has since 2021. What happened? • Hacker News Board

Re: Texas just got closer to blackouts than it has since 2021. What happened?

#181

Post by actionfromafar » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 4:16 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #157

kentonv wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so weird because I thought the whole point of ERCOT was to be a market and use market forces to solve everything. So why are they paying bitcoin miners to turn off, rather than just charging them market rates at all times and letting them decide for themselves? I feel like I'm missing something here.

Electricity markets are not just spot prices. There's sub-markets for being available to respond to emergencies. The UK system: https://www.nationalgrideso.com/industry-information/balanci... It seems you'd be eligible for "quick reserve" if you could turn on or off >1MW of response within one minute. Ideal for batteries. Includes a "standby" fee paid hourly to cover having the system "armed". (It seems unlikely that…

It certainly could

Re: Texas just got closer to blackouts than it has since 2021. What happened?

#182

Post by Aloha » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 4:17 PM UTC

As a Texan, I think whats going on in Texas, perhaps controversially is what happens when you have an over reliance on solar and wind as primary power sources. Even in Texas (where wind is basically ever-present) there are times when the wind does not blow.

I think wind and solar are great, and we should build more, but you also need a sizable amount of thermal generation (preferably nuclear) to provide for base load.

I dont think thermal can be replaced readily with gas turbine, battery, pumped storage, or other forms of rapid spin up equipment.

I have the somewhat controversial opinion that things like bitcoin are useful because they create static demand, and by doing so make the excess generation from wind and solar economical, thereby keeping the spot price in the grid high enough that thermal generation is still cost effective to build and operate - I dont think we should be paying them to shut down, they should just be disconnected wholesale from the grid during periods of ultra high demand as a condition of their interconnection to it.

Re: Texas just got closer to blackouts than it has since 2021. What happened?

#183

Post by cozzyd » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 4:20 PM UTC

wc- wrote: post #26

There's a lot of misunderstanding in the comments so far regarding bitcoin mining incentives. I urge you to read this thread describing the split-second load-shedding response time from the POV of one of these miners: https://twitter.com/ogbtc/status/1699588007664275873 It also goes into the other mechanism by which they make money (being natural sellers of future energy demand contracts during times of high demand).…

Putting the electricity into giant resistors would be a more productive source of on-demand energy usage.

Re: Texas just got closer to blackouts than it has since 2021. What happened?

#184

Post by Aloha » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 4:26 PM UTC

4567546 wrote: post #72

actionfromafar wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I have to set up shop in Texas with some space heaters and claim my bitcoin energy credits!

Unfortunately not how it works. The reason that Texas is paying miners to load shed is because they are being paid to supply a constant load to the grid. They shut down in order to dump capacity into the grid because that is less expensive than attempting to bring new capacity online to meet demand and then later bring that capacity back down when it is no longer needed. Because of the way miners can ramp up and down…

I also have the somewhat controversial opinion that things like bitcoin are useful because they create static but easy to shed demand.

So to explain what I mean by that in depth - the economic losses from shutdown are limited to production losses during the shutdown, and there is no loss of inventory, or other secondary losses like process startup and shutdown for a refinery, semiconductor fab, or other kinds of manufacturing which product a physical good.

This static load absorbs some of the excess generation from wind and solar, thereby keeping the spot price in the grid high enough that thermal generation is still cost effective to build and operate.

Now, that all said, I dont think we should be paying them to shut down, they should just be disconnected wholesale from the grid during periods of ultra high demand as a condition of their interconnection to it. That said, we have programs designed to offset economic losses from disconnection from the grid during high use periods, and the bitcoin plants are just using that existing mechanism - I have mixed feelings about it, but I dont think its all bad.

Re: Texas just got closer to blackouts than it has since 2021. What happened?

#185

Post by Aloha » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 4:32 PM UTC

actionfromafar wrote: post #156

4567546 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately not how it works. The reason that Texas is paying miners to load shed is because they are being paid to supply a constant load to the grid. They shut down in order to dump capacity into the grid because that is less expensive than attempting to bring new capacity online to meet demand and then later bring that capacity back down when it is no longer needed. Because of the way miners can ramp up and down…

This only makes sense with the unstated premise that the state is helpless to regulate the market with its own set of incentives.

Legally, it in some ways, it currently is.

Could Texas return to Integrated utilities, and Rate of Return based pricing? sure, but that'd be up to the legislature to deal with.

I think the current system surprisingly (even to me) works well, I think building in market incentives is probably easier than trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

Re: Texas just got closer to blackouts than it has since 2021. What happened?

#186

Post by Aloha » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 4:33 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #157

kentonv wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so weird because I thought the whole point of ERCOT was to be a market and use market forces to solve everything. So why are they paying bitcoin miners to turn off, rather than just charging them market rates at all times and letting them decide for themselves? I feel like I'm missing something here.

Electricity markets are not just spot prices. There's sub-markets for being available to respond to emergencies. The UK system: https://www.nationalgrideso.com/industry-information/balanci... It seems you'd be eligible for "quick reserve" if you could turn on or off >1MW of response within one minute. Ideal for batteries. Includes a "standby" fee paid hourly to cover having the system "armed". (It seems unlikely that…

The Texas and UK power market are actually very similar in construction and operation.

Re: Texas just got closer to blackouts than it has since 2021. What happened?

#187

Post by pengaru » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 4:37 PM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #180

pengaru wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they now have 5.5GW of battery backup capacity that covers the critical period at dusk, when solar generation is headed for zero, during late summer where the days are getting shorter but it is still hot Am I supposed to interpret "covers critical period at dusk..." as the "hours" part of 5.5GW? Because I'm having trouble grokking what is the actual battery backup capacity described here... Does CA have battery cap…

Every grid-scale battery in CA has 4 hours of energy capacity at its rated power, so 22GW-h at present.

Thank you!

Re: Texas just got closer to blackouts than it has since 2021. What happened?

#188

Post by drewchew » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 5:06 PM UTC

boringg wrote: post #124

drewchew wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it help if the state were to provide tax incentives for in home battery backups?

A lot of states are looking into large battery facilities specifically for frequency regulations.

I kind of wonder why there has been so much push for consumer solar / battery over neighborhood solar / battery projects. At least in Texas, there is so much empty land, it seems like it would be more effective to 'imminent domain' some land or leverage existing right-of-ways for solar array + battery storage, rather than putting the burden on individual homeowners to purchase what is effectively community infrastructure (if we were allowed to sell power back to the grid).

Re: Texas just got closer to blackouts than it has since 2021. What happened?

#189

Post by boringg » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 5:14 PM UTC

drewchew wrote: post #188

boringg wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of states are looking into large battery facilities specifically for frequency regulations.

I kind of wonder why there has been so much push for consumer solar / battery over neighborhood solar / battery projects. At least in Texas, there is so much empty land, it seems like it would be more effective to 'imminent domain' some land or leverage existing right-of-ways for solar array + battery storage, rather than putting the burden on individual homeowners to purchase what is effectively community infrastruc…

I was talking utility level storage. My lens is that utility/industrial level solar + storage is where most of the action is. The retail stuff is good for construction and local jobs and the feel good homeowner play.

Re: Texas just got closer to blackouts than it has since 2021. What happened?

#190

Post by meinmissoula » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 5:38 PM UTC

briffle wrote: post #98

wonderwonder wrote: post #71

This is politics in a nutshell. People keep voting for the same politicians so they keep the same problems. Power infrastructure is poor? Keep voting for the same people that made it that way. Lots of violent crime in your city? Keep voting for the people that release criminals back into society immediately. Politics is so binary and broken in this country that we are just making fixable issues into permanent hardshi…

I understand your point, but if I let the $OTHER party get control, they will work against my beliefs on Abortion and Guns, which are the only 2 beliefs that the parties have together taught me matters...

The irony of this post.

If you over-simplify, stereotype and demean people who disagree with you, you're part of the problem.

Honestly if it was that simple, then maybe we should just say no more killing babies and let the hunters shoot their deer and otherwise move forward with the rest of the Democratic party's platform.