Disco Elysium and the need for collective action • Hacker News Board

Re: Disco Elysium and the need for collective action

#31

Post by JamesBarney » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 11:52 PM UTC

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #15

JamesBarney wrote: post #5

This article takes a story about some creators getting screwed out of their company by a crooked CEO and makes it about unions. Whether or not creative artists should unionize (I'm generally anti-union but the game industry working conditions seemed so screwed up I think it's needed) this wasn't a dispute between employees and owners, but a dispute between two owners. One of which was a sophisticated unethical CEO an…

Why are you anti-union if I can ask?

Sure. This is based on US unions, I don't know if they operate differently in other countries. Germany seems to have better unions but I not very familiar with them.

I had some limited business dealings with them that were super shady. Weird nepotism rules where people get their sons/nephews hired. Generally pay based on seniority not skill. Makes it really hard to fire bad actors or people bad at their job. (see teacher's union/police union) Leads to incredibly weird inefficiencies about who can do what. If unions were in software a dev couldn't update a Jira ticket except under very specific circumstances. Generally makes it harder to get a job.

If it just increased pay that'd be awesome, but it tends to have a lot of knock on effects. If the U.S. was completely unionized I think we'd all be poorer for it. I think there are better tools in the policy toolkit to make sure people who are struggling in the economy are taken care of.

Re: Disco Elysium and the need for collective action

#32

Post by JamesBarney » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 11:57 PM UTC

wahnfrieden wrote: post #12

JamesBarney wrote: post #5

This article takes a story about some creators getting screwed out of their company by a crooked CEO and makes it about unions. Whether or not creative artists should unionize (I'm generally anti-union but the game industry working conditions seemed so screwed up I think it's needed) this wasn't a dispute between employees and owners, but a dispute between two owners. One of which was a sophisticated unethical CEO an…

You're anti union except for when conditions are bad for workers? Are you against business owners coordinating too?

Yes I'm also against cartels who coordinate their purchasing of labor.

Re: Disco Elysium and the need for collective action

#33

Post by TotalCrackpot » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 1:15 AM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #31

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you anti-union if I can ask?

Sure. This is based on US unions, I don't know if they operate differently in other countries. Germany seems to have better unions but I not very familiar with them. I had some limited business dealings with them that were super shady. Weird nepotism rules where people get their sons/nephews hired. Generally pay based on seniority not skill. Makes it really hard to fire bad actors or people bad at their job. (see tea…

So the issue is hierarchical structure - solution to that is to have horizontal decision making with delegates (not representatives) and no salary for any union member for the work for the union. Anarchists trade unions usually operate like that.

Re: Disco Elysium and the need for collective action

#34

Post by burnished » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 1:21 AM UTC

dpflan wrote: post #2

Any recommendations for similar games or similarly impressive games?

I found Tyranny to be very impressive.

Re: Disco Elysium and the need for collective action

#35

Post by tb_technical » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 2:11 AM UTC

tormeh wrote: post #30

AmpsterMan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love this comment because it is strongly hinted that Evrart Claire is the real deal and he likes to play the part of a corrupt Union boss

A thing I love about DE is how different the players interpret it. Personally I think no faction came out looking good in that game, which was probably the point.

It's absolutely the point

Re: Disco Elysium and the need for collective action

#36

Post by burnished » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 2:32 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #22

dpflan wrote: post #2

Any recommendations for similar games or similarly impressive games?

I second this request. Specifically, I would love to hear about more games that actually reward role playing. In Disco Elysium, you adopt beliefs ("thoughts" in your "thought cabinet") and then are rewarded for choosing dialogue and performing actions consistent with those beliefs. You can have a wide variety of experiences with the same exact story in DE based on the beliefs you choose and adhere to. The art, writin…

There are plenty in the sense that there are many games with morality scales that reward your participation, I think they are sometimes called red/blue morality in a derogatory sense? Superjerk vs jesus, force lightning vs whatever bargain bin replacement the light side gets.

In a lot of other games the reward for roleplaying is getting to roleplay. But thinking about it from another perspective, games where the mechanics reinforce and contextualize that, you might like Caves of Qud for the reputation system, Tyranny because the whole thing is just framing for the kind of role you'd play in this particularly fantastical setting, and Fallout New Vegas because its fun going into it with a character or concept in mind and just going nuts with it.

None of them come close to DE in what I understand you to be looking for, we could only be so lucky.

Re: Disco Elysium and the need for collective action

#37

Post by JohnBooty » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 2:49 AM UTC

burnished wrote: post #36

JohnBooty wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I second this request. Specifically, I would love to hear about more games that actually reward role playing. In Disco Elysium, you adopt beliefs ("thoughts" in your "thought cabinet") and then are rewarded for choosing dialogue and performing actions consistent with those beliefs. You can have a wide variety of experiences with the same exact story in DE based on the beliefs you choose and adhere to. The art, writin…

There are plenty in the sense that there are many games with morality scales that reward your participation, I think they are sometimes called red/blue morality in a derogatory sense? Superjerk vs jesus, force lightning vs whatever bargain bin replacement the light side gets. In a lot of other games the reward for roleplaying is getting to roleplay. But thinking about it from another perspective, games where the mech…

Thank you for the suggestions! I will slowly check them out... a friend of mine worked on Fallout:NV! Can't believe I've never played.

    None of them come close to DE in what I 
    understand you to be looking for, we could only 
    be so lucky.

I was hoping that some games would, quite frankly, simply ape Disco Elysium's thought-cabinet mechanic to an extent!

I'm surprised they haven't, especially considering DE's success, particularly with indie fans and creators. I thought DE might spawn sort of a mini-genre.

Re: Disco Elysium and the need for collective action

#38

Post by darthrupert » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 4:35 AM UTC

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #33

JamesBarney wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. This is based on US unions, I don't know if they operate differently in other countries. Germany seems to have better unions but I not very familiar with them. I had some limited business dealings with them that were super shady. Weird nepotism rules where people get their sons/nephews hired. Generally pay based on seniority not skill. Makes it really hard to fire bad actors or people bad at their job. (see tea…

So the issue is hierarchical structure - solution to that is to have horizontal decision making with delegates (not representatives) and no salary for any union member for the work for the union. Anarchists trade unions usually operate like that.

Are there examples of current anarchist trade unions?

Re: Disco Elysium and the need for collective action

#39

Post by runeblaze » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 6:32 AM UTC

dpflan wrote: post #2

Any recommendations for similar games or similarly impressive games?

I think Ruina [1] is extremely good as a single-person made RPG with very well-crafted world. I really enjoyed the roleplaying aspect of it (it came from a TRPG scenario by the author). Not sure how good the English fan-translation is though

[1]: https://rpgmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Ruina:_Fairy_Tale_of_the_Fo...

Re: Disco Elysium and the need for collective action

#40

Post by TotalCrackpot » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 8:14 AM UTC

darthrupert wrote: post #38

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the issue is hierarchical structure - solution to that is to have horizontal decision making with delegates (not representatives) and no salary for any union member for the work for the union. Anarchists trade unions usually operate like that.

Are there examples of current anarchist trade unions?

Yeah, for example: https://www.iclcit.org/introduction-of-the-international-con.... Consider that these are revolutionary unions with aim of overthrowing capitalism, but in theory one could get inspired by their structure to create a reformist union based on horizontality.