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On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

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Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#221

I urge everyone interested to read the intel report and tell me what about it is false or inaccurate. https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/snowden_report_... https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/hpsci_snowden_r... > “The Committee further found no evidence that Snowden attempted to communicate concerns about the legality or morality of intelligence activities to any officials, senior or otherwise, dur…

Did you try at all to discover falsehoods yourself?[1] Snowden showed the intelligence committee were ineffective or complicit. And the chairman called him a traitor before the investigation. Truth was not the committee's goal. And their sources were established liars. Did you assume had contact meant initiated contact? [1] https://tcf.org/content/commentary/house-intelligence-commit...

I mostly believed in Snowden's cause until I looked at the facts objectively and read this report. It's part of why I urge others to read it.

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#222

The weirdest thing is that Drake had already whistleblown about the program in 2005. It was front page on the NYT and WP. But 8 years later everybody seemed to have completely forgotten that and acted like Snowden was revealing something new.

People keep forgetting because of this good old two-pronged psy-op: "Wow, you must wear a tinfoil hat, you really think the government is tapping your phones?" "Wow, you didn't already know that every phone is tapped? You're so behind the times. Every cool person is already jaded about that." There's almost no will from voters to fight this, so the discourse instantly leaps from "impossible" to "acceptable".

When they brought back the X-Files for one season a few years ago they did an episode on this premise: the shadowy conspiracy master actually releases youtube videos describing what he does, on the grounds that nobody knows the difference between truth and untruth anymore, so it only helps him to further muddy the waters.

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#223

The weirdest thing is that Drake had already whistleblown about the program in 2005. It was front page on the NYT and WP. But 8 years later everybody seemed to have completely forgotten that and acted like Snowden was revealing something new.

The president's order expired in 2007. Some people thought it meant the illegal parts stopped. And some reports before 2013 said Trailblazer never operated fully.

Except after Drake's revelation Congress rushed back to DC for an emergency session to make the program legal.

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep forgetting because of this good old two-pronged psy-op: "Wow, you must wear a tinfoil hat, you really think the government is tapping your phones?" "Wow, you didn't already know that every phone is tapped? You're so behind the times. Every cool person is already jaded about that." There's almost no will from voters to fight this, so the discourse instantly leaps from "impossible" to "acceptable".

> "Wow, you didn't already know that every phone is tapped?..." Not sure I'd call it psy-op. When it became feasible for the NSA to essentially tap every phone in the U.S. I think most of us just presume that they will do just that. Historically, it's what those with power will do — exercise it. And for all number of examples in history we are not naive enough to think that their saying they're not doing it (are no l…

One bit of trivia that came out of it is that since WWI, the FBI has received from USPS a photograph of the destination and return address of every letter mailed in the US (the analogy with telephony metadata is pretty obvious).

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#225
> Ledgett's answer is confirmed by a comprehensive listing of the tasks of the NSA in the Strategic Mission List from January 2007. It was published by The New York Times in November 2013, but got hardly any attention, despite the fact that it clearly contradicts the claims by Snowden and Greenwald that the NSA has just one single goal: collect all digital communications from all over the world.

If you look at the document, it indeed lists more than half a dozen goals, not just one. For example, supporting industrial espionage is mentioned (expressed as preventing "surprises" in the area of technology - wonderful euphemism!), which is not terrorism-related at all.

But the part that worried Snowden is actually reflected in the strategy document, even using the same wording as Snowden: MASTERING the Internet/cyberspace. That _does_ have a ring of total control and exhaustive gathering.

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#226
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on information from…

So you are claiming that the NSA (at all levels) lied to the House Intel committee? That's a big claim, you should back it up with some evidence. Which part of the report is not accurate? Have you read the report?

Director of National Intelligence James Clapper told Congress in March 2013 that the NSA did not collect data on millions of Americans, just three months(!) before Snowden and Greenwald revealed the classified NSA documents proving otherwise. [0] The heads of the intelligence agencies will say whatever they need to say to get what they want. Lying to Congress and the American people is business as usual for them.

[0] https://apnews.com/article/business-33a88feb083ea35515de3c73...

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#227
post #125
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that the government pursued Snowden They had to. He broke the law. He would have had the chance to go to trial and defend himself and seek whistleblower protection status. Given the politically charged nature and public opinion at the time, he might have had a pretty fair shake and could have been living comfortably in the US working for the ACLU or something. Instead he plotted an escape to an openly host…

>He would have had the chance to go to trial and defend himself and seek whistleblower protection status No, he wouldn't. Google "snowden fair trial". He has always said that he is perfectly willing to come to the US and do exactly as you describe, if the government is willing to guarantee a fair trial. It isn't. Go on, Google "snowden fair trial". Go do it. It's a key part of the story you're apparently unaware of.…

Trump makes the same claims every time he is caught doing something.

Implying there is some sort of kangaroo court cabal out to get you is a deflection tactic that you seem to have fallen for.

If the American system is so corrupt that we ignore our own rules, why didn't the CIA just black bag him and bring him back? Or kill him outright? Both would be easier and more effective than a show trial.

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He would have been executed.

What peacetime charge carries the death penalty for espionage or related?

Do any of the relevant laws specify needing to be at war? Both the treason clause of the Constitution and the Espionage Act specify helping "enemies," but I'm not sure they specify needing to be at war.

The Rosenberg's were executed despite the US never officially declaring war on the USSR or even North Korea.

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it confirmed that they've lied under oath to Congress before?

It is confirmed they have lied under oath to Congress about the very thing Snowden blew the whistle on. So yes, they are perfectly acceptable sources of information regarding Snowden.

Since lying to Congress is a crime, who was charged?

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it looked like a crazy thing to do. But I'm not one of those who reaches for the word "madman" when someone does something that seems to me to be irrational. With the benefit of hindsight, it doesn't seem so irrational to me now. * Russia was under sanctions for the invasion of Crimea; the central bank had built up a huge stock of foreign currency, but it was only going to diminish with time. * The Russi…

I think it is astute to look at things in these terms, and avoid the lazy but quite common exercise of labeling motivations and actions you don't understand as "not understandable." George Kennan, who came up in a recent HN post [0], has a fair bit to say on the subject. Namely, that throughout its history, Russia has been obsessed with expanding and securing its border for perfectly understandable strategic reasons.…

> the demonization of Putin is a stand-in for foreign policy analysis

We tend to personalize nations, to the extent that we refer to the nation using the name of its leader. So, for example, "Putin invaded Ukraine". In fact the first time Putin even visited Ukraine was more than a year after the invasion.

What we generally mean by "Putin" is what during the Cold War was referred to as "The Kremlin", roughly Soviet/Russian central government. "Kremlinologist" was a term that referred to people whose job was figuring out what was going on in the Kremlin; civilians like me were encouraged to regard Kremlinology as impossible in principle, like Astrology, or reading tea-leaves.

I don't pretend to know what's going on in the Kremlin. But generals get pushed aside, and then re-hired somewhere else; officials get publicly humiliated on TV. I think it's faily clear that Putin is not in any sense an absolute dictator. He's the leader of a very authoritarian, militaristic government, in a country that is traditionally very authoritarian and militaristic.

I mean, I do think Putin's bonkers. But not based on his actions; I suppose his government's actions are the actions of the leadership clique, the "siloviki", i.e. the former KGB/GRU colonel-generals, turned oligarchs and government officials. I don't think Putin could have ordered this invasion without consensus of some kind in his clique. If his power were that concentrated, he would by now have ordered full mobilization, but it isn't, and he can't. [Edit] The reason I think he's bonkers is the things he says, especially in "On the Historic Unity of the Russian and Ukrainian People". But even that wasn't invented by him; those ideas come from "philosophers" like Alexander Dugin.

The handling of the Prigozhin Mutiny is evidence of that (Prigozhin is not siloviki, and was never KGB/GRU). If Putin were an absolute dictator, Prigozhin would have died the day after the mutiny, either shot somewhere very public, or poisoned using chemicals only made by the Russian government.

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