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On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

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Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#211

Post by bjourne »

caskstrength wrote: post #183
bjourne wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how?

Sure. Ukraine at the moment is completely dependent on its allies to support the war effort. Without their help Ukraine wouldn't hold on for long. Recent Russian disinformation campaigns seem to be concentrated on eroding public support for Ukraine in western countries through various means and they had some success among the whole Greenwald-Taibbi-Snowden-Peterson crowd specifically and MAGA-people in general. Losin…

So let me get this straight. Since you are Ukrainian, Chomsky, Snowden, Greenwald, and others are threatening you by expressing views on the Ukraine war that diverge from the mainstream? Doesn't that sound awfully similar to George W Bush who claimed that everyone who isn't with us (the US) in the "war on terror" is against us?

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#212

Post by lern_too_spel »

DharmaPolice wrote: post #109
hooande wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all these years I'd never seen this. Ironic, but not surprising, that according to this account Snowden did exactly what he accused the US government of doing: mass collecting data with no authorization or purpose and then using it to accuse someone he disagreed with of crimes.

I think we should be holding governments to a higher standard than some random dude.

And we do. The difference is that Snowden did the crimes he is accused of. The US government, on the other hand, did not commit the crimes Snowden accused it of.

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#213

Post by pseudalopex »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #136
ReactiveJelly wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep forgetting because of this good old two-pronged psy-op: "Wow, you must wear a tinfoil hat, you really think the government is tapping your phones?" "Wow, you didn't already know that every phone is tapped? You're so behind the times. Every cool person is already jaded about that." There's almost no will from voters to fight this, so the discourse instantly leaps from "impossible" to "acceptable".

> "Wow, you didn't already know that every phone is tapped?..." Not sure I'd call it psy-op. When it became feasible for the NSA to essentially tap every phone in the U.S. I think most of us just presume that they will do just that. Historically, it's what those with power will do — exercise it. And for all number of examples in history we are not naive enough to think that their saying they're not doing it (are no l…

> When it became feasible for the NSA to essentially tap every phone in the U.S. I think most of us just presume that they will do just that.

Much narrower claims were dismissed as paranoia before Snowden's disclosures. The comment you replied to made that point specifically.

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#214

Post by tough »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #128
bhawks wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever system there is in place doesn't seem to do much to address: + lone wolfs such as Uvalde, Las Vegas, Nashville, Waukesha... + Cross border drug operations + Transnational incidents like Nord Stream, spy balloons, COVID. + Military operations in Ukraine, Russia, Afghanistan We are asked to relinquish so many freedoms and spend so much money on what, exactly? The 'we can't tell you because it'll jeopardize all…

That's the problem with "secret" agencies: you don't know they're effective because they don't publish what they know or what they prevented. You hear about successful lone wolves, they become national news. You don't hear about the people that were taken in for questioning after posting a threatening message on the internets, which flags up in the FBI's systems right away. There's plenty of news of intercepted drug…

Well it is regular business for any sufficiently big drug operation to put some lure's in the form of smaller shipments to distract the police from the real action or just give them something to play with.

All fine unless you happen to be on the wrong delivery I guess

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#215

Post by pseudalopex »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #138

I urge everyone interested to read the intel report and tell me what about it is false or inaccurate. https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/snowden_report_... https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/hpsci_snowden_r... > “The Committee further found no evidence that Snowden attempted to communicate concerns about the legality or morality of intelligence activities to any officials, senior or otherwise, dur…

Did you try at all to discover falsehoods yourself?[1]

Snowden showed the intelligence committee were ineffective or complicit. And the chairman called him a traitor before the investigation. Truth was not the committee's goal. And their sources were established liars.

Did you assume had contact meant initiated contact?

[1] https://tcf.org/content/commentary/house-intelligence-commit...

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#216

Post by hn1986 »

0xDEF wrote: post #96
kome wrote: post #94

This really feels like CIA NSA propaganda. As if nothing wrong happened. What the hell. The character assassination of Snowden&co in the anglophone sphere is absurd, and probably manufactured. But this didn't quite happen in other languages. Assange trials are just mind-blowing and worrisome, and yet the simple truth is here: who told the truth is in jail, and who committed war crimes is outside.

>The character assassination of Snowden Well nobody forced him to repeat Russian propaganda in late 2021 and early 2022 that "Russia was totally not going to invade".

He hasn't even acknowledged his part in spreading the obvious propaganda. Nor does he seem to care about US democracy considering he's been silent on Jan 6 Trump insurrection

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#217

Post by caskstrength »

bjourne wrote: post #211
caskstrength wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Ukraine at the moment is completely dependent on its allies to support the war effort. Without their help Ukraine wouldn't hold on for long. Recent Russian disinformation campaigns seem to be concentrated on eroding public support for Ukraine in western countries through various means and they had some success among the whole Greenwald-Taibbi-Snowden-Peterson crowd specifically and MAGA-people in general. Losin…

So let me get this straight. Since you are Ukrainian, Chomsky, Snowden, Greenwald, and others are threatening you by expressing views on the Ukraine war that diverge from the mainstream? Doesn't that sound awfully similar to George W Bush who claimed that everyone who isn't with us (the US) in the "war on terror" is against us?

You asked how I'm _threatened_ by those people trying to shape the narrative and I explained. Not sure what does whataboutims about George Bush have to do with it.

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#218

Post by caskstrength »

pseudalopex wrote: post #210
caskstrength wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I downvote it because it’s been repeated a dozen times and there’s a lack of intellectual honesty to say that a prediction that Russia wouldn’t invade is the same as spreading Russian propaganda for deliberate and malicious reasons. It wasn't just a good-faith prediction, he was quite cocky and arrogant about that[0], including, ironically, accusing others of amplifying disinformation campaign: "So... if nobody sho…

Arrogance does not disprove earnest belief. Snowden's comments before the invasion disappointed me. But many others said similar things. And I don't believe he owes Ukraine effective statelessness. Did he say anything about the war in 18 months?

> Arrogance does not disprove earnest belief.

I'm not saying I'm absolutely positively 100% sure that he intentionally shills for Russia, but consider that he has been in Russia for quite some time now but only got the passport after he started tweeting from pro-Russian angle.

> But many others said similar things.

Yeah, but I kinda expected more from him than "US bad, then Russia must be good".

> Did he say anything about the war in 18 months?

I'm not aware of anything after his initial "okay, I won't talk about it anymore since you ghouls are concern-trolling me after I got this one wrong", but I'm not really tracking his hot takes on social media anymore. I think he recently switched to well-articulated and insightful commentaries on US preparing to attack China or something...

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#219

Post by caskstrength »

ifyoubuildit wrote: post #197
caskstrength wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Ukraine at the moment is completely dependent on its allies to support the war effort. Without their help Ukraine wouldn't hold on for long. Recent Russian disinformation campaigns seem to be concentrated on eroding public support for Ukraine in western countries through various means and they had some success among the whole Greenwald-Taibbi-Snowden-Peterson crowd specifically and MAGA-people in general. Losin…

Does reading taibbi or thinking the snowden revelations were a good thing make someone a MAGA person? Is Taibbi running Russian disinformation campaigns? I don't fault you for your position one bit, but this stuff seems a little conspiratorial to me. And what Peterson are you talking about?

> Does reading taibbi or thinking the snowden revelations were a good thing make someone a MAGA person?

I never said that. In fact I consider Snowden's revelations a good thing and I'm not a "MAGA person".

> Is Taibbi running Russian disinformation campaigns?

Never said that either.

> I don't fault you for your position one bit, but this stuff seems a little conspiratorial to me.

Yes, that would indeed sound a little conspiratorial.

Re: On the 10th anniversary of the Snowden revelations

#220

Post by phatfish »

InSteady wrote: post #200
denton-scratch wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it looked like a crazy thing to do. But I'm not one of those who reaches for the word "madman" when someone does something that seems to me to be irrational. With the benefit of hindsight, it doesn't seem so irrational to me now. * Russia was under sanctions for the invasion of Crimea; the central bank had built up a huge stock of foreign currency, but it was only going to diminish with time. * The Russi…

I think it is astute to look at things in these terms, and avoid the lazy but quite common exercise of labeling motivations and actions you don't understand as "not understandable." George Kennan, who came up in a recent HN post [0], has a fair bit to say on the subject. Namely, that throughout its history, Russia has been obsessed with expanding and securing its border for perfectly understandable strategic reasons.…

Situations change, I can see how in the 70s and 80s this may have been an argument to keep the cold war "cold". But as the Russians have shown, there is no longer any need to handle them with care. Their armed forces are diminished to the point they can't successfully roll tanks over their own border and get a strategic win.

All they have left is the nuclear threat, which only protects existing borders (even for Putin holding Ukrainian territory is not worth having Moscow turned to glass by the return strike).

There is nothing to be gained by acknowledging the Russian expansionist "cultural imperative" in policy making now. Ensure the ex-Soviet states that want to join NATO and the world will be a safer place.

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