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Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

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Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#881
post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you suggest not-buying as a better action than regulation if you acknowledge that it doesn't work? Are you a manufacturer of low-quality IoT devices? People don't prefer insecure devices, they just want convenience and manufacturers are not being upfront about how dangerous these "convenient" devices are. Ergo, regulation.

Convenience and low price are legitimate preferences, even if you disagree.

Not when the consumer doesn't know the trade off they are making. Buying a bottle of colorful poison and drinking it and dying because it looked tasty is not a legitimate preference.

You are being willfully ignorant of the power dynamics and information disparity that exist between manufacturers and consumers. The whole point of the label is to better inform consumers.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#882

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A timer to turn on an oven has been a thing for 25 years or more, probably there were clockwork ones before that. So it is down to very fine control on timing, or not turning the oven on, say, if you're in a traffic jam. I'd expect the network connection to go down and the oven not to turn on at least as often as 10 minute makes an operable difference.

Maybe you don't decide at the start of your day, rather it comes up later that the kids want something baked for dinner that is already prepared and just needs to go into the oven, and you also get home from work at like 7pm. Idk how niche that is, but if that's someone's situation, the remote control makes sense.

Yup. Or the buses and the queues at childcare pickup and the speed of walking home with a 3 and 5 year old means that arrival times at home vary dramatically.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#883

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that scenario I would MUCH rather the company be aware someone is putting that lust together, notfiy me in advance of the research being concluded, provide updates, organize and manage the contents of that list, offer solutions, patch the fixes in new models, and generally work with the people who already purchased the house. I would not prefer someone to do it all in secret and then at the last second decide they…

> In that scenario I would MUCH rather the company ... notfiy me ... provide updates.. Here is the problem - the company does not give a crap. You get robber, and it's their fault? They don't care. But they will sue the researcher, because the researcher has discovered that it's their fault you got robbed.

Some companies will absolutely give a crap.

And the ones that don't create a paper trail of not giving a crap

The researcher is protected from being sued by being granted permission and following any regulations created for ethical security research.

We can make security notifications from companies mandatory. Now if they try to hide something, and it comes out later, there is documentation of the cover up

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#884

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, security researchers should have strong legal protections; they should be given the benefit of the doubt at every turn. Currently, researchers are sometimes threatened with decades in prison for testing the security of websites or devices. If they act in good faith as researchers, this should never happen. This is literally a national security issue. We currently stifle security research on essential IoT device…

This might be an unpopular opinion but I respectfully do not see it that way. I agree with promoting security for IoT devices, but there needs to be consent from the company being probed for vulnerabilities or else I find it hard to consider it legitimate research, regardless of intent. I dont think anyone would like it very much if someone came to their house and documented all the ways to rob it they could find, ev…

You give up consent for a device to not be scanned the second it is connected to the public internet. There are botnets that are continuously scanning all allocated IP blocks for potentially vulnerable devices - try logging requests to an open 22 port and take a look at the kinds of requests you get. That's the price you pay for connecting to an open world wide network.

Now the conduct and what the operators of a massive scanning operation intend to do with the data they have collected should be regulated, and punishments should be instilled by those who use this data to facilitate attacks on others. But the ship has sailed for consent to connections from other devices over the internet.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A legitimate researcher should be notifying the company that they are going to be looking for vulnerabilities in the first place. That is part of the distinction in behavior that I am encouraging. This way if someone is caught poking around for things to abuse unsolicited, at least there's a little more merit to holding them accountable. We are able to treat it more like the threat it is. The issue is this. You hav…

You can't give them a slap on the wrist if you assert what they are doing isn't criminal. Having an issue with the punishment model is no reason to throw out the law. I think the subject has enough depth and complexity to it that we need to promote cooperation with companies. We can build protections against companies being dicks much easier that we can codify the difference between malicious or innocent intent behin…

> You can't give them a slap on the wrist if you assert what they are doing isn't criminal. Having an issue with the punishment model is no reason to throw out the law.

The law is too broad in addition to being too punitive.

But here's an argument for throwing it out entirely.

There are two kinds of people who are going to spot a vulnerability in someone else's service: Amateurs and professionals.

Professionals expect to be paid. But if you go up to a company and tell them their website might be vulnerable (you don't know because you're not going any further without their permission), and you send them a fee schedule, they're going to take it as a sales pitch and blow you off most of the time. Even if there's something there. To get them to take it seriously you would need to be able the prove it, which you're not allowed to do without entering into time-consuming negotiations with a bureaucracy, which you're not willing to do without getting paid, which they're not willing to do before you can prove it. So if you impose any penalty on what you have to do to prove it, professionals are just going to send them a generic sales pitch which most companies will ignore, and then they stay vulnerable.

Which leaves the amateurs. But amateurs don't even know what the rules are. If they find something, anybody's first instinct is "this is probably nothing, let me just make sure before I bother them." Which they're not really supposed to do, but in real life that's going to happen, and so what do you want to do after it has? Anything that discourages them from coming forth and reporting what they found is worse than having less of a deterrent to that sort of thing.

But subjecting them to anything more than a small fine is clearly inappropriate.

> We can build protections against companies being dicks much easier that we can codify the difference between malicious or innocent intent behind actions that are more or less identical up until damages happen.

The point is that we don't need to distinguish them. We can safely ignore anyone whose malicious intent is not unambiguous, because we're already ignoring the majority of them regardless -- even the ones who are clearly malicious -- when they're outside of the jurisdiction.

> Opening someone's front door "on a lark" can get you shot in some states.

The equivalent action for an internet service is to ban them from the service. Which is quite possibly the most appropriate penalty for that sort of thing.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#886
This should probably done on a per port basis right? Authentication schemes for validating an endpoint for HTTPS and MQTT are pretty mature. Banning all other port connections for IoT devices and requiring the device to validate it's endpoints using a PKI mechanism seems pretty reasonable to achieve the security classification without making an unreasonable ask on businesses. Devices that would have to connect to arbitrary endpoints kind of fall outside of IoT in my opinion. Further guidelines could be put out for other ports and protocols, but those two would probably cover the vast majority of IoT use cases.

I guess the only issue is the concern that if a vulnerability is discovered, the device could be made to make requests to another endpoint. Perhaps it would make more sense for endpoints to be hard coded if you don't want to have to provide OTA updates? That could be more secure in the long run for a lot of applications than having a mechanism that allows you to remotely overwrite firmware.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#887

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't agree with this at all. I specifically avoid all smart plugs that don't have a UL mark (or European equivalent mark). It's impossible to say that consumers don't care about a specific certification before it exists based on their existing behavior. Consumers _do not have any ability_ to distinguish on this axis at the moment. So, we can't say: "based on their behavior they don't care". They very well mig…

Do you think your mother, your uncle, your niece, your sister would do the same? I don't really buy that even 1% of the consumers will care about this label to the point of voting with their wallet on that basis.

That's great, then this proposal has _no harm_.

Manufacturers that believe the same thing as you can just opt to forego placing the FCC's mark on their packaging. We can just test the theory in the marketplace. If you and those manufacturer's suspicion is correct, then the mark will just fall by the wayside unused.

The only way manufacturers could be harmed by the requirements to obtain this mark is if consumers _do care_.

So, where's the harm in testing your theory against mine? It's very similar to the Energy Star program run by the EPA, which is a voluntary mark which is now on many appliances sold in the United States.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#889
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The person you are replying to outlined one major example where IoT security was improved: wireless routers. Not allowing users to update the software on the hardware they own is just a botnet waiting to happen.

I'm sure the number of routers running OpenWRT is dwarfed by the number of OpenWRT-compatible routers running vulnerable, stock firmware. Allowing people to install software on their hardware isn't a cure for vulnerabilities. It's a step in the right direction for sure, but it's a very small one from the perspective of something as huge as "IoT security".

but that's just because manufacturers desperately hide the fact that their own firmaware is based on OSS, and that there are alternate stacks available.

imagine instead that vendors had to acknowlege the structure of their firmware, and make the (usually obvious) hardware interface documented from sale. that would automatically solve the issue of out-of-support(-by-vendor) hw.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#890

It is extremely disheartening to see one of our many bureaucrats come to an anoymous international forum for input on an American domestic policy issue. A domestic policy issue that should be exclusively taken care of by the elected legislature rather than an unelected bureaucracy. I hope that all of the comments in this thread are fully discarded by all who hold actual power at the FCC; the opinions of the internati…

That's silly. If you see good advice you take it. Doesn't matter where it came from. That is, unless you're too clueless to tell the difference between good and bad advice. Then you find someone to trust.

Individuals should certainly follow that advice. Unelected bureaucrats shaping domestic industry with their extra-legislative regulatory power should not.

The FCC exists solely to serve American interests - nobody else's. There is an enormous problem with unelected government officials flagrantly ignoring either the constitution or the will of the people - often both - in the United States. Coming to an anonymous international forum for advice on exercising regulatory power which arguably shouldn't exist in the first place is a spit in the face to every person that this bureaucrat is meant to serve.

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