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Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

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Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an European, where we drive mostly stick, it's funny to observe the newfound US love for stick shifts. It's funny because it happened almost exactly when automatics became good! Good dual clutch gearboxes are amazing, but even "classic" ones like BMW's ZF6 or ZF8 are really close. ZF8 is so good BMW uses it in the M3, instead of a dual clutch. With these options, I'd never go back to stick shift. This after having…

drivers that enjoy manuals have always been around. We’re just louder now because they almost don't make cars with manuals anymore, so when one does come along we rejoice.

Genuine question: What exactly do you enjoy? Twenty years go, you could do a mountain road engine braking with downshifts, getting then the perfect gear for the turn apex and coming out perfectly balanced. But cars have changed. Engine braking is a lot less effective today (different compression ratios, better mechanics). Automatics now have more gears and allow you to manually select the gear, so you can control available torque in the turn.

It seems the advantages of manual transmissions no longer exist.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It reminds me of the complaining in the early iPhone days about lack of a physical keyboard. I totally get that. People will always complain about some new design fad, whether it's actually good or not. However... we're talking about heavy vehicles traveling at high speed with humans inside. You simply don't have to takes your eyes off the road as long with tactile controls as you do with touch screens.

My only experience with touchscreen cars is with the Model 3. You don't need the screen for operational stuff needed for driving. Off the top of my head, these are all on the steering wheel/stalks: - Blinkers - High beams - Gearbox - Climate control temperature up/down - Cruise control enable/disable, speed change - Media volume, media next/previous - Phone call answer/hangup/volume - Windshield wipers On the next Mo…

The primary issue with the touch screen in the Model 3 in my opinion, is actually the climate controls. You could argue that these aren't necessary to adjust while driving because the car is supposed to do it automatically, and/or you can use the admittedly terrible voice command system, but things like the recirculate button (I know I'm not the only one that uses it, my friend keeps tapping the physical button in his Honda and doesn't have to look at it to do this) are particularly annoying.The climate controls are in a drawer that is opened by a swipe up, and until the latest update, the recirculate button would highlight but not activate/toggle if pressed slightly off centre.

The other situations involving wipers are also annoying when the auto windshield wiper sensor becomes invisibly dirty. The wipers will activate nonstop during Autopilot or just on auto while driving in daylight sun, particularly at sunrise and sunset. It is an extreme frustration to have to look at the screen to click the slider to turn them off.

As of the current software version, the way the buttons on the stalk or the wheel work is they either activate something one off e.g. high beams for a moment, or wipe once, and/or they pop up a little menu on the bottom left corner of the screen where the media controls are, and you have to use the touchscreen to activate them. Recently a mechanism to press and hold the steering wheel scrollwheel to activate a menu was added, but it's just impossible to use without looking. I am not sure if I am special and/or are using it wrong or something, but the menu pops up in a location that is obscured normally by my arm/the wheel when holding the steering wheel at a normal and designed position with both hands. Annoyingly, this is also where the "Apply slight turning force to steering wheel" nag prompt appears, which is a terrible and unnoticeable place to put a safety related alert that is actually designed to have you keep your eyes on the road. This really should have the option to be an audible and friendly chime.

The lack of a turn signal sound when the computer crashes, is, by the way, another omission in my opinion, because the turn signal stalk is only a momentary button. The turn signals work but you'll have no clue while driving if they're actually on, without the screen and the sound.

I mean, maybe these are all normal and maybe I'm just really picky about things. I really do like the overall experience of using the large screen, as the GPS is much more glanceable with this setup and passengers can route plan or discuss the route. The apps are all terrible though, like Spotify/Apple Music, and they're unnecessarily slow and buggy with small touch targets as if they want to trick you into keeping your eyes off the road for more than a fraction of a second.

The UI design is kind of mixed, tbh. I'm sure some of these issues can be resolved by software, but at least there are the "S3XY Buttons", a third party accessories with a set of BLE buttons that you can stick anywhere you like that activate things using CAN bus injection.

Of course, that might (not sure, dont have this accessory) create synchronization bugs like (annoyingly, sometimes the car saying it is in reverse when it is in drive), but these happen anyway by itself.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate them so much. Otherwise great cars are completely ruined by touchscreens. What was wrong with tactile knobs you could operate one handed without looking? You’re driving for fuck’s sake. It’s why things like the GR Corolla are nearly miraculous in 2023, it even comes stick shift only.

I assume it's a cost thing. Slapping a tablet everywhere and letting the code monkeys figure it out is probably cheaper than making various knobs and buttons. I dread the day I have to get a new car. Even Subaru, who are usually behind the curve, have gone all touch screen.

Volvo, the vehicle company that started out making bearings, used to make a big selling point in the 80's about their knobs, switches and buttons were good enough for people wearing gloves in the middle of the Scandinavian winters and intuitively placed for drivers to use without taking their eyes off the road. Saab were the same, but fast forward to today and the lunatics are calling the shots.

Even the flappy paddle gearboxes still have a weakness, namely they dont have a clutch peddle to dip when the traction control/esp decides to have a nightmare and ends up trying to cause accidents, where oil, ice or snow removes the grip and temporarily freewheeling is the fastest way to get the vehicle back under control before reengaging the drive system.

And these tablets like displays ruin the night vision, I actually liked the old Saab displays where you could press a button and it switched the lights off to loads of buttons and gauges for night driving.

Cars have got noticeably worse with these tablet displays.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was riding in a friend’s Tesla where the screen crashed while we were on the road. Just a black screen for some amount of time and had zero insight into the state of the car. That just does not happen with physical controls.

Sure it does. Gauges are almost all driven electrically these days and not directly connected to a speed readout mechanically. If you have a problem with the gauge cluster, it's very common to have gauges malfunction. Sometimes they read incorrectly. Sometimes they read 0. If it's one of those multifunction displays, you could just have that display "crash" too.

There is still going to be significantly better isolation than if it is all behind one pane of glass. If the radio is on the fritz, the hard-wired speedometer and windshield wipers should still be able to operate and accept commands.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The touchscreens are really a dealbreaker on new cars. They’re not just prone to quick obsolescence, they’re dangerous.

We just bought a 2023 Mazda CX-5 Select for $29k. No touchscreens in the whole car! And no dealer markup - we paid slightly under MSRP. But... it is certainly satellite connected (you can manage locks, windows, etc. from your phone, as well as remote start). Wish it was included in this privacy investigation. I'd love to know more about what they do with what they know about our car and how we use it.

I have some information on that I ran accross:

https://www.reddit.com/r/askcarsales/comments/15nkbh3/new_ca...

https://old.reddit.com/r/CX50/comments/126aepa/mazda_connect...

There’s a few threads linked in the top discussion (you may need to expand the massively downvoted responses, and some are deleted), but Mazda is known to use tracking data to deny warranty claims and share that data with insurers.

I was also stunned to learn salespeople’s commission is denied if they don’t get you on the app! Absolutely wild.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an European, where we drive mostly stick, it's funny to observe the newfound US love for stick shifts. It's funny because it happened almost exactly when automatics became good! Good dual clutch gearboxes are amazing, but even "classic" ones like BMW's ZF6 or ZF8 are really close. ZF8 is so good BMW uses it in the M3, instead of a dual clutch. With these options, I'd never go back to stick shift. This after having…

> As an European, where we drive mostly stick Enjoy it while it lasts. As of a couple years ago, more than half of all new cars sold in Europe are automatics. That doesn't seem too surprising, I imagine the same logic that made manuals appealing in the past is why automatics are appealing today.

Automatics are more fuel efficient, and govenment keeps raising the efficiency requirements. Automatics do this by having a lot of gears and changing up very aggressively. It would suck to drive a 7 or 9 speed manual (maybe truck drivers feel differently; I think 5 is optimal for a car) but automatics can manage it and squeeeze out another tenth of an MPG.

I love manual transmissions and will never buy an automatic unless forced to. I'd rather buy a used car with a manual than anything new.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It reminds me of the complaining in the early iPhone days about lack of a physical keyboard. This is so not the same thing.

It really is imo. Good touchscreen UI is superior in many ways (though not all) to fixed control buttons. It’s why it dominates phones and why it’s winning in the market for cars as well (Model Y was top selling car on earth for Q1 2023). Bad touchscreen UIs suck, but that’s also true of phones. Good tactile controls have some advantages, but ultimately they’re minor and worse on net than a good touchscreen interface…

The iPhone works because it's a device you'll look at all the time while operating its touchscreen.

The car touchscreen doesn't work since you need to operate buttons without directly looking at them, purely by tactile feel.

This is not a problem touchscreens we're able to fix so far, and I don't think this will change any time soon since there's just not enough ways for a touchscreen to provide this level of tactile feedback.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#399
post #363
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except when you live in a city where they start to limit and ban transit of older cars, to force people transitioning into lower emission models, or public transit. Like in Spain (through rules ultimately coming from Europe) there is a class of vehicles which are gradually being kicked out (banned from crossing certain very ample boundaries around the city): gasoline cars made before 2001, and diesel powered cars mad…

In many states in the US if your car lives long enough you get rewarded with exemption from emissions requirements!

but you may be restricted to driving only on weekends and holidays

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#400
post #363
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except when you live in a city where they start to limit and ban transit of older cars, to force people transitioning into lower emission models, or public transit. Like in Spain (through rules ultimately coming from Europe) there is a class of vehicles which are gradually being kicked out (banned from crossing certain very ample boundaries around the city): gasoline cars made before 2001, and diesel powered cars mad…

In many states in the US if your car lives long enough you get rewarded with exemption from emissions requirements!

Reworded slightly:

If you're poor enough, the US government won't punish you for relying on an older car.

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