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Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

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Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#271

Post by EGreg »

Modern cars use a variety of data harvesting tools including microphones, cameras, and the phones drivers connect to their cars. Manufacturers also collect data through their apps and websites, and can then sell or share that data with third parties.

Do I understand this correctly? So all my conversations in a modern car potentially ARE actually being recorded and sent to be indexed and used against me later? Or to sell me stuff based on what I said in the car?

Is this like when ISPs sell my data?

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#272

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

ragnese wrote: post #193
gonehome wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> It reminds me of the complaining in the early iPhone days about lack of a physical keyboard. I totally get that. People will always complain about some new design fad, whether it's actually good or not. However... we're talking about heavy vehicles traveling at high speed with humans inside. You simply don't have to takes your eyes off the road as long with tactile controls as you do with touch screens.

Having driven a Tesla for three years now, I basically don’t use the screen while driving. The controls I actually use are on the steering wheel or column (cruise control settings, music control, turn signals) and I have never had a significant issue with leaving wipers, lights and climate on auto

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#273

Post by EGreg »

tristor wrote: post #147
cpursley wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The touchscreens are really a dealbreaker on new cars. They’re not just prone to quick obsolescence, they’re dangerous.

I hate them so much. Otherwise great cars are completely ruined by touchscreens. What was wrong with tactile knobs you could operate one handed without looking? You’re driving for fuck’s sake. It’s why things like the GR Corolla are nearly miraculous in 2023, it even comes stick shift only.

I would loooooove if a Cadillac Ciel convertible from Pebble Beach 2011 came out, with the suicide doors, no touchscreens, etc. Who’s with me?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Ciel

The brands don’t often listen to their customers, all of whom clamored for this car ever since it was shown. It only appeared in the “Entourage” movie and it’s a beaut. Nary a single bad review on the entire Internet, but tons of people begging Chrysler to release it and sites devoted to pretending it came out.

Car guys — what is the closest car one can get to this today, in all of human history? Go to Cuba and get some gas-guzzling illegal convertible with tailfins?

And please — no recordings of our conversations and sex in the car so they can send it off to others!

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#274

Post by sergiosgc »

ragnese wrote: post #193
gonehome wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> It reminds me of the complaining in the early iPhone days about lack of a physical keyboard. I totally get that. People will always complain about some new design fad, whether it's actually good or not. However... we're talking about heavy vehicles traveling at high speed with humans inside. You simply don't have to takes your eyes off the road as long with tactile controls as you do with touch screens.

My only experience with touchscreen cars is with the Model 3. You don't need the screen for operational stuff needed for driving. Off the top of my head, these are all on the steering wheel/stalks:

- Blinkers

- High beams

- Gearbox

- Climate control temperature up/down

- Cruise control enable/disable, speed change

- Media volume, media next/previous

- Phone call answer/hangup/volume

- Windshield wipers

On the next Model 3 version, they are moving the gearbox controls over to the screen. I have my doubts about that, but I'll complain once I have driven one.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#275

Post by nawgz »

stanski wrote: post #168
tristor wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate them so much. Otherwise great cars are completely ruined by touchscreens. What was wrong with tactile knobs you could operate one handed without looking? You’re driving for fuck’s sake. It’s why things like the GR Corolla are nearly miraculous in 2023, it even comes stick shift only.

I assume it's a cost thing. Slapping a tablet everywhere and letting the code monkeys figure it out is probably cheaper than making various knobs and buttons. I dread the day I have to get a new car. Even Subaru, who are usually behind the curve, have gone all touch screen.

I took advantage of the used car market to upgrade my 2021 Subaru to a 2024 (same car, better trim), there's actually MORE physical controls in the 2024 - hope isn't entirely lost!

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#276

Post by seanw444 »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #30
0xcafefood wrote: post #13

It almost feels silly to ask, but is this legal even in the United States with its comparatively weak privacy laws? In many states, a vehicle is legally an extension of the home. So legal rights and protections that apply in one's home also apply in one's vehicle. Is the idea that, buried somewhere in the legalese, is a statement that the buyer is granting the automaker the right to spy?

Yes, the US is pretty nearly lawless when it comes to privacy issues. Half the protections we have today are "it's legally required in the EU but low cost enough to just do globally".

Considering the government uses the private sector as a cheat code to evade our 4th Amendment, this crap needs to be addressed.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#277

Post by jibe »

tpmoney wrote: post #252
jibe wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is illegal to tamper with any part of the emissions control system on your car. Can you cite the law? I know the EPA has civilly pursues companies that make products that bypass emission controls. But haven’t seen or heard anything that goes as fat as you suggest. E.g.: https://www.dinancars.com/products/software-tuning/engine-tu... This allows you to change the engine programming on a BMW. They do note it is not…

The EPA has a document here https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta... With a relevant paragraph on page 2 The site you linked mentions the carve out that the EPA has, but note that it requires both retaining or beating original behavior and requires extensive prod of that fact. A similar law affecting phone home circuits would almost certainly not find disabling the ability to phone home as in c…

The part of your post that made me curious was whether fuel mapping, or ECU swapping was illegal. It looks like it is in a grey area under Clean Air Act, but generally interpreted as legal as long as you aren't doing things to make your emissions worse.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#278

Post by dylan604 »

ghaff wrote: post #229
Digory wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The feds have mandated a screen (for backup cameras). Then the makers try to minimize costs by having the screen do everything. I’d like to say I’d pay more for real buttons, but I’d never buy a new car.

It's probably true that once you (more or less) need a screen for a decent backup camera and most people like a screen for at least GPS, it must be pretty tempting to at least think about what physical buttons can reasonably be eliminated given that the touchscreen is a given. And I do think a lot of designs go too far.

>and most people like a screen for at least GPS

personal anecdotes, but the vast majority of me being a passenger to someone else's driving, they all used their mobile device for GPS. even the couple of cars i owned that had a nav system, the GPS came from the mobile device. it required their app to be installed to input the destination, making the internal unit just a second screen for your mobile.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#279

Post by bityard »

hashtag-til wrote: post #3

I think it will be a good differentiation factor in a few years, that a brand comes up with an offline car, i.e. a car that you just refuel/charge and drive - no telemetry/connected features involved. It may be a niche thing in future, but certainly something that would be appealing to me as a consumer.

I'm with you 100%, but reality is strongly not in our favor.

In order to bring a new car brand to the market, it literally takes the resources of a narcissistic billionaire, and even those are much more like upper-middle class status symbols than affordable conveyance for everyone. The regulatory hill is a steep climb on its own and the incumbents have a literal 100-year head start on how to sell cars to normal people.

Even if we just look at the tech sector... where are the privacy-preserving cell phones? There are none, unless you are willing to do not much else on it other than phone calls, text messages, and very light web browsing.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#280

Post by lambdasquirrel »

charles_f wrote: post #214

This is very much in line with the industry trying desperately to get into the tech recurring revenue model. > the manufacturer collects information including sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic data, though there’s no details about how exactly that data is gathered How is that even possible? Without more details about what this means and how it's done, this sounds a bit fishy to me. > Mozilla said it…

> How is that even possible? Without more details about what this means and how it's done, this sounds a bit fishy to me.

Did you visit some explicit site without VPN (or at least a private tab)? Bingo. The data brokers will correlate you. Once your data can be correlated, whatever they gather is thrown into the pool. I'll bet that there's some back-scratching going on somewhere. Hey we know all about where John is at when he's driving, and we'll sell/give you that data and in exchange we'd like to buy/trade some ads on those other sites-of-interest he/she goes to.

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