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Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

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Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#771
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

openwrt is surely lacking in many aspects, but all the points you brought forward also apply to the manufacturer firmware but those are even less user friendly and cannot be modified. there are a lot of open and closed firmware projects building upon openwrt

> but all the points you brought forward also apply to the manufacturer firmware but those are even less user friendly and cannot be modified. That's more than a reach of a claim. All manufacturer firmware are buggy with poor security? That's very obviously false. With closed manufacturers the history is that it's a mixed bag, not a blanket. Some are excellent, some are very poor. Openwrt has been mediocre and all th…

> All manufacturer firmware are buggy with poor security? That's very obviously false.

guess we have a difference of opinion then

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#772
1. It's awesome to see, is it good government? happening here.

2. Why do we have to have internet enabled devices. I am not arguing for totally disconnected, but why be always on the dangerous internet. If you want updates or other transmissions be on low power, local or physical connections only. Set standards for these. Most obvious is bluetooth only devices. Now an attacker has to either compromise my bluetooth house controller (phone?) or has to visit my house.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#773
> [..] I’m here to discuss security updates for IoT devices and how you can make a difference by filing comments with the FCC.

I'm obviously somewhat invested into the Hacker News platform, but please be sure to get opinions from other groups too. For example, hacker groups may have interesting comments on right to repair.

> I’ve advocated for the FCC to require device manufacturers to support their devices with security updates for a reasonable amount of time [1].

Either require updates, or open up the devices such that a community of open source developers can write updated software. The benefit of the second proposal is reducing e-waste after the update period elapses and encouraging up-cycling.

> If they meet certain criteria for the security of their product, manufacturers can put an FCC cybersecurity label on it.

It's only as good as you enforce it. It might be easier for somebody like Google to buy a small IoT company, fold it rather than invest in updates, then take the IP and employees.

The payment for the FCC sign-off could be large enough that the FCC could feasibly demand access to the internals and pay somebody to patch it on their behalf (like an insurance policy). Of course the preferable option is that the company addresses this themselves.

> I fought hard for one of these criteria to be the disclosure of how long the product will receive security updates.

Good, but not quite there. Providing some form of update is not the same as providing a comprehensive security update, or a timely one. There should be a window of something like 3 months (very generous) to make a good-faith effort to respond to an identified security issue (CVE?), either internally or externally.

The devices of course also need to demonstrate they are capable of receiving updates and that consumers are capable of applying an update, even if their infrastructure/company is down. For example, a signed patch could be applied reasonably easily via USB, or over a WiFi interface.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#774

Thanks for reaching out to the community. Instead of mandatory updates, there are lower hanging fruits you can win, and will have just as much, if not more positive security impact. 1. No default password, one must be set at initial configuration 2. Devices must function without public internet connection (unless it is one of the device's primary function to transmit out) 3. Devices must function without centralized…

By default, no telemetry. NO DATA OUT OF MY HOUSE WITHOUT EXPLICIT PERMISSION.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lucky guy, it sounds like you've never experienced overwhelming anxiety over having possibly left the oven on while out of the house.

A simple timer that switches off after a couple of hours would do. The timer could reset every time the oven door is opened. This should solve most issues. Long cooking could have a bypass button or somethong (if the door open reset is not enough).

I just remembered many old analog electrical ovens had this already , the only way to turn on the oven is by setting a timer (and when you needed it on for many hours you had to set another timer for yourself to remember to extend the oven timer ).

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#776
Hi from across the pond...

This is a great initiative and will be crucial for keeping a free and open society running smoothly in a more hostile information security environment.

My suggestion is to have a look at the work done in the European Union with Cyber Resillience Act. Much can be said about what EU is doing and the competence of the legislators there, but CRA is actually quite decent. If an upcoming FCC regulation would be somewhat aligned with what is required for CE-compliance, the life for us working with developing IoT-products with a global footprint will be much easier!

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#777

(I also submitted this as an Express Comment in the proceeding. If you agree, consider also filing a comment.) A lot of issues around IoT device security are hard, but there is one simple and easy piece of policy that would be a big win: Make the requirements stricter if the product contains a microphone than if it doesn't. Some device makers are putting microphones into devices that don't need them, to support funct…

The microphone is not scary because of hackers, its scary because of nation states.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point, some IoT devices really can't be designed to be physically serviceable, while still remaining reasonably compact, e.g. those that need very high levels of water resistance, especially saltwater resistance. And adding any remote update mechanism at all would more then likely decrease overall security. So there actually should be a counter mandate too, for devices that are impractical to design to…

It sounds like you're looking for a carve out so you don't have to upgrade your devices to have a modern microcontroller that supports remote updates and are using saltwater as a scary thing so no one challenges you on it. You can conformal coat a ESP32 with a sensor and battery and a wireless charger, and get remote updating. If hobbyists are doing that without commercial backing, what industry experts like you have…

Wouldn't a Starlink satellite qualify as an IOT edge device? How do you propose a user-servicable physical switch on a device in LEO?

Not all devices have easy or cost-effective physical access -- that's why IOT is particularly effective at bridging the digital-physical divide.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#779
post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if the owner can't control exactly what is in an update, they absolutely MUST be able to control when an update occurs. +1 for this at the consumer level. My oven may have a critical update, but - for right now - *nothing* is more critical than finishing dinner. I'll let the update apply the day after thanksgiving when I'm doing the dishes. There are a few connected appliances brands that do this well: updates…

I think this is oversimplifying things. Is finishing the dinner more important than applying a patch that fixes actively exploited bug that locks your oven into cleaning mode and burns everything inside into ash over the next three hours? Or something that disables the safety checks and lets the oven overheat and burn your house down? (Granted, the latter shouldn't physically be possible because it should have physic…

Finishing dinner can be more important than the house not burning down. A burned down house is likely insured. A dinner with a potential business client is not.

Re: Ask HN: I’m an FCC Commissioner proposing regulation of IoT security updates

#780
post #738

I also recommend to consult with projects like LVFS/fwupd[1][2], that provide firmware updates for many different devices. [1] https://fwupd.org/ [2] https://github.com/fwupd

I can’t believe you’re the only one mentioning this.
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