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Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

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Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#331
Sarah Gardner, the author of the letter to Apple and CEO of the Heat Initiative, worked for 10 years and until earlier this year as a VP at Thorn [1]. Thorn sells a "comprehensive solution for platforms to identify, remove and report child sexual abuse material." [2]

She's using PR to pressure on Apple into implementing the kind of solution her previous company is selling. Won't someone think of the children??

[1] https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-gardner-aba90013/ [2] https://www.thorn.org/our-work-to-stop-child-sexual-exploita...

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing out a few app vendors simply isn't impressive. Of course some app vendors can take a stand against mid-tier governments. It's great marketing for them, and the corporate risk isn't so high. It's the platform vendors which have much at stake. And of the three big platform vendors, two of them already scan private photos for CSAM right now — Google and Microsoft. Yet nobody is outraged because nobody actually…

Wholesale scanning of private data is unaaceptable, and the fact you engage in such mental gymnastics to justify it is a sign that everyone should be distrusting any platform by default. Simple as. Enjoy the exodus.

Your first sentence makes no sense. Perhaps you meant to say: "Wholesale scanning of private data is unacceptable therefore everyone should be distrusting any platform by default." That's a statement I would agree with.

I reject the claim of "mental gymnastics" as a meme bereft of substance, and specifically in this instance, as an unproven hypothesis. But even if I granted the inference, I don't see how overly elaborate argumentation could have any explanatory power for the trustworthiness (or otherwise) of major platforms.

I'm curious, why do you think I'm advocating trust in any platform? And I'm curious why you think that I have any concern one way or another for an "exodus" from any platform?

Really, I'm just replying to say that while I think I understand the gist of the tone of your reply, I don't actually understand anything you wrote. And my hope is that you can clarify, because — and I say this with all sincerity — I really am genuinely curious.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#333
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They confirmed here: https://9to5mac.com/2021/08/23/apple-scans-icloud-mail-for-c... Apple clearly has very limited ongoing scanning because they report on the order of hundreds of instances of CSAM to NCMEC every year whereas other services with pervasive scanning report on the order of tens of millions of instances. It’s ok, you are one of the vast majority of people commenting on this topic while reasoning from fa…

Nothing in this article from Apple says that they don't scan iCloud Photos, and many things strongly suggest that they do. The headline says they don't scan iCloud Photos, but I don't see the statements from Apple saying that. The media often misreports on Apple's comments because Apple's expert at inducing the media to misreport in ways that are favorable to Apple.

The author is repeating a confirmation they received directly from Apple, as described in the first sentence. Ben is a long time journalist who's been on the beat for decades. When he says, "Apple has confirmed to me" it's a newsworthy report of what Apple has confirmed to him. The statement doesn't have to be attributed to an Apple spokesperson to confirm that, and Ben is not prone to "misreporting" like you claim without evidence.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be surprised. Lots of offenders are very low sophistication. If you read news articles about how a particular offender was caught with illegal material, so so often it's because they uploaded it to a cloud provider. It's not a one-sided tradeoff here.

What percentage of offenders victimize children and never record it in any way? If that's the overwhelming majority of abuse cases, what are we even doing here?

Policing doesn't stop all crime, why are we even policing?

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might've read the spec but you're missing the point and your approach is naive. For me it's about crossing the line. If you want to be snooping around my phone or my house, you need a warrant and go to official channels provides by my gov officials. And you really think it's as simple as picking apples from oranges? I mean come on. Yes, it's easy to implement hash check to see if u have some known child porn in y…

First of all, your analogy of "sending officials to your home without a warrant" is again you completely misunderstanding the feature. The local scanning would've been enabled only if you would've uploaded the photos to iCloud anyway. To complete your crappy analogy: You had already agreed to send the information of everything contained in your apartment to a company, and now you're getting into a hissy-fit when they…

Sorry for my previous posts' hostile nature. Thank you for clearing up the actual proposed implementation details. It sounds like I came to pretty much the same conclusion as you did. I might have been quite unclear, but I was actually referring to (in my mind) the inevitable stage 2 of the implementation, if you give the little finger here ... theres no stopping. When I read about this, I was feeling sad, frustrated and a bit angry too. I like my iphone, i switched from android because they aged too quickly. Given the nature of Apple ecosystem, I took this as crossing the line. And i would have to strongly look for alternatives, since this scanning is not something i want to accept and i would vote with my money elsewhere.

Yes, i know they scan all photos already. But to scan MY photos and hold me accountable, that is something i am not okay with. Yes, its only icloud, for now, but i dont see the point of using some 3rd party cloud, i used to, but in apple device it would be suboptimal for my daily use etc etc.

My point was of the original case of protecting children. That is what the advocate groups want. That is what I want. But I just draw the line there what i feel is my personal space, that you don't scan my photos or files, and that is not the answer. Since there are these few behemoth FAANG companies ruling the ecosystems and impacting our lives, the battle of privacy needs to be fought right there. So, for me that would be the line as I see the progression of that path is much worse. That is where I raise my hand and say, I'm out, what next? No smartphone? Maybe. :) Peace.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#336
post #135

I think they likely also considered the lawsuit exposure. If just 0.0001% of users sued over false positives, Apple would be in serious trouble. And there's another dynamic where telling your customers you're going to scan their content for child porn is the same as saying you suspect your customers of having child porn. And your average non-criminal customer's reaction to that is not positive for multiple reasons.

Section 230 removes liability for restricting good faith attempts to combat CSAM. > (2) Civil liability > No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of— > (A) any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise ob…

Ugh, that's a pisser. "We ruined your life, sorry. You can't do anything about it. Ta ta!"
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