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Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

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Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#61
post #8
post #5

It's crazy to prefer a natural diamond for anything other than a collectors' item. It's not about being 'cheap' - whatever your budget is, if you're picking an engagement ring say, why not get a technically superior (or larger) stone for the same price tag?

I pitched this to my wife a few years back. She insisted she’d rather have a smaller natural diamond. It makes no sense to me. Shiny carbon is shiny carbon to me. There’s no real logic in it. But given it’s a status symbol that derives its value from its rareness, I suppose it’s no different than a Luis Vutton or a Rolex. It’s not about the function, it’s about the fact that you can afford one. I hate that mentality,…

> Shiny carbon is shiny carbon to me

You're only considering intrinsic value. That's helpful for raw commodities.

For nearly everything else, value is tied to perception, history, etc.

If I have two identical baseballs, they're both "just" baseballs. But one of them could have much more value due to its history: maybe it was a homerun ball by a famous player, or a ball that I or a family member hit/caught. Same function. Could be otherwise identical, but could also be worth very different amounts.

The stories we tell is where the primary value is.

In this case, your wife values the story of a natural diamond that was formed through long, natural processes and required the effort of finding, excavating, cutting and so on.

Now you could disagree with that story, or you could dislike the tellers and amplifiers of that story, but the fact remains that your wife and many others value that story, making it more precious than merely "shiny carbon."

This is branding and marketing 101. Humans are storytelling machines and they understand value largely via stories and relationships. Misunderstanding that is a failure to understand essential human characteristics.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#62
post #15
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pitched this to my wife a few years back. She insisted she’d rather have a smaller natural diamond. It makes no sense to me. Shiny carbon is shiny carbon to me. There’s no real logic in it. But given it’s a status symbol that derives its value from its rareness, I suppose it’s no different than a Luis Vutton or a Rolex. It’s not about the function, it’s about the fact that you can afford one. I hate that mentality,…

A good Rolex at least has a thriving resale market, and can actually increase in value over time. Same for a lot of other luxury goods as well as other stores of value (like gold or Bitcoin). Diamonds on the other hand are effectively worthless the moment they leave the store. Their high prices are a product of marketing and social pressure, nothing more.

I agree with the rest but...

> Diamonds are effectively worthless the moment they leave the store

That's not the case! You can have the stone removed from the ring and, in case you don't have the original certificate, sent to a certification authority (like GIA) to have it graded. I think it also, once graded, gets automatically laser-engraved (above a certain carat) but I'm not sure about that: maybe you need to pay for the laser engraving too. And it's then got a value on the market: there's a worldwide market (or several) and every single jeweler in the world can see which stones are available at which price depending on their specs and book any stone and have it shipped in a few clicks.

Source: I've got a good friend who's a jeweler and he showed that to me.

Now: fancy shops (with famous names) may make fun of people by selling them stones at 3x their values or more (I don't doubt that) but you can also go to an independent jeweler and have him model/build the ring (or he'll outsource the 3D modelling) then put the stone on it and you'll pay a price much closer to actual price of the stone (the jeweler doesn't really work harder for a 0.5 carat stone vs a 2 carat one, so the bigger the stone, the less is "wasted" on the ring).

Regarding the differing values: I think it's mandatory that every lab-grown diamond above a certain carat are laser-engraved so unless labs growing these diamonds are cheating, it's extremely hard to make a lab-grown one pass for a billion years old one.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might lab-grown diamonds have reached a point of being indistinguishable from natural diamonds such that people pass off lab-grown diamonds as natural diamonds without anyone being able to tell?

I have read that the distinguishing feature is that natural diamonds have flaws. Entrapped dirt or what have you that is not found in the sterile environment of the synthetic ones.

Maybe a specialist could tell a natural, formed over thousands of years, flaw from a lab-grown flaw, but really I think it's more like you can get a better grade from a lab (and especially with consistency, frequency, at a much lower price due to being rare to find naturally occurring). i.e. you can get flawed and coloured lab-grown diamonds too. (A mix of taking less care/time, older equipment, and binning the results like silicon wafers I assume.)

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#64
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because all of us want stupid shit? Unless you’re willing to bundle everything beyond pure Buddha-tier equanimity as “character flaws.” it’s unfair to draw the line between “useless thing you were socialized to spend money on” and “useless thing someone else was socialized to spend money on.”

Eh… stupidly expensive, unethically sourced, low store of value, easily substituted by superior cheaper alternatives feels like the height of “bad” materialism if there is such a thing.

Considering how many marriages end due to finances and how often couples fight over money, "wastes money" is probably one of the least desirable traits in a future spouse.

"Failure to see reason" is probably the next biggest red-flag/dealbreaker for me.

I'm going to die alone.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#65
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As opposed to"? Sounds like you are agreeing that "The industry has so many unethical practices".

Mined and lab grown diamonds have entirely different suppliers, supply chains and certifications. The person I replied to has problems with the latter, which is idiotic considering the alternative is 1000x worse.

You need to re-read the person you replied to, they aren't saying what you think they are saying.

Mined diamonds may actually be lab grown diamonds certified as mined.

The financial incentives only goes in one direction on this one.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because all of us want stupid shit? Unless you’re willing to bundle everything beyond pure Buddha-tier equanimity as “character flaws.” it’s unfair to draw the line between “useless thing you were socialized to spend money on” and “useless thing someone else was socialized to spend money on.”

The flaw isn't 'wanting the diamond', the flaw is 'being aware of the horrific nature of the industry and still wanting the diamond'.

A significant volume of the world's clothes are produced through sweatshop and child labor.

Then there's consumer electronics manufacturing... ...or being a tourist to the Saudi Arabia/Turkey/Russia/UAE where modern-day slavery is taking place at scale.

Out of sight, out of mind.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because all of us want stupid shit? Unless you’re willing to bundle everything beyond pure Buddha-tier equanimity as “character flaws.” it’s unfair to draw the line between “useless thing you were socialized to spend money on” and “useless thing someone else was socialized to spend money on.”

The flaw isn't 'wanting the diamond', the flaw is 'being aware of the horrific nature of the industry and still wanting the diamond'.

I’m sure the coffee you drink and the tshirts you wear and the phone you use are all ethically sourced eh?

We’re all deluding ourselves for the sake of sanity + having nice stuff.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#68
post #61
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pitched this to my wife a few years back. She insisted she’d rather have a smaller natural diamond. It makes no sense to me. Shiny carbon is shiny carbon to me. There’s no real logic in it. But given it’s a status symbol that derives its value from its rareness, I suppose it’s no different than a Luis Vutton or a Rolex. It’s not about the function, it’s about the fact that you can afford one. I hate that mentality,…

> Shiny carbon is shiny carbon to me You're only considering intrinsic value. That's helpful for raw commodities. For nearly everything else, value is tied to perception, history, etc. If I have two identical baseballs, they're both "just" baseballs. But one of them could have much more value due to its history: maybe it was a homerun ball by a famous player, or a ball that I or a family member hit/caught. Same funct…

Yeah, that makes sense. It’s not about the function, that’s for sure.

> Misunderstanding that is a failure to understand essential human characteristics.

I’ll add that to the list of human behavior that I don’t really understand.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#69
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rings will get bigger/more extravagant and get mixed with other precious gems or metals. What is not going to happen is stores selling cheaper jewelry.

My naïve assumption is that outside of geologists and jewelers, it is impossible for a layman to identify natural, synthetic, or even a different gemstone.

I would agree, but I think that after some period of time, it will become known that the price of diamonds have dropped dramatically. This means that if a man wants to signal that he's spent a chunk of change on a ring, he'll either need to go with a much larger stone than before, or he'll need some sort of external signifier. That could be a certificate that it's a natural diamond, or that the setting is somehow super fancy.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#70
post #5

It's crazy to prefer a natural diamond for anything other than a collectors' item. It's not about being 'cheap' - whatever your budget is, if you're picking an engagement ring say, why not get a technically superior (or larger) stone for the same price tag?

> The handicap principle is a hypothesis proposed by the biologist Amotz Zahavi to explain how evolution may lead to "honest" or reliable signalling between animals which have an obvious motivation to bluff or deceive each other. It suggests that costly signals must be reliable signals, costing the signaller something that could not be afforded by an individual with less of a particular trait

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_principle

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