Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is about to get massively downvoted... but oh well. Of course it matters! Would you say it's "complete account of my reasoning" if I wore t-shirts to work because they are comfortable? But I wear a dress shirt and tie because my company is trying to project just that type of stuffy image. The tie is uncomfortable... but that's life. The breast-comment in this story wasn't the appropriate way to tell her if she w…
You're the one that chose to work in an environment where a coat and tie are de rigueur , and the comment about a low-cut dress had fuck-all to do with whether she was dressed professionally or not. It was verbal leering, pure and simple.
"Lighten up"
601–610 of 829 posts
Re: "Lighten up"
#602Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You're arguing a straw man. I didn't say anything remotely close to that; my point was just that wearing low-cut tops and dressing for sex appeal are usually correlated. Oh, did I get that quote wrong? Let's play the tape: > Why do all the waitresses in Hooters wear low-cut tops? Huh. It sounds like you're saying there that, because women selected for their sex appeal by a restaurant which is only a step away from…
> Here is a picture of.... Alright, look...those are pictures of people who are topless and are taken in non-sexual environments. Biologically speaking, there is nothing more sexual about those photographs than photographs of the same people wearing shirts. Physiologically speaking, though, there is a difference. For most of us, chemicals in our brain respond instantaneously to those pictures, virtually shouting, "th…
But if the article being posted is about the sexist treatment of a woman in the workplace, eventually the discussion will get to the absurd point where many of the men essentially claim that these biological sexual impulses literally don't even exist.
If treating people differently because of their gender is wrong, does it apply to both positive and negative treatment? Because judging by the comment count whenever this subject comes up, nothing seems to fire up the HN crowd more than sexual discrimination. Other more serious injustices in life never invoke this much passioned discussion.
Re: "Lighten up"
#603If you walk around alone in an unsafe neighborhood at night, you're asking for trouble. If you don't have a choice but to be in an unsafe neighborhood, hunker down and get to a point in your life when you can afford a safe neighborhood. In the programming world, this translates to : become a great programmer, and you will find yourself in a great programming environment (birds of a feather...). If you really love pro…
So, to me, you're saying that because we can't solve unsafe neighborhoods by calling out that undesirable behavior when we see it (which we can't), we shouldn't call out undesirable behavior in an unsafe work environment.
Biologically, human minds do or want to do lots of things when presented with various stimuli. That doesn't mean it's OK for them to do it. I wonder if we're biologically inclined to victim-blame the way you just did...
Re: "Lighten up"
#604She can adapt the group become a leader, I've seen it happen with girls or she can cry about being an abused minority. Such is a difference between strong and weak people. Granted we don't come to work to be leaders some of us enjoy just writing code and doodling up layouts and logos in photoshop. In this case a compromise should be found - offsite work on the project. From a coffee shop or otherwise. You know there are other companies to work with as well, maybe with better female/male ratio.
In the end this is a battle of sexes, the chemistry is wrong - men want to have sex with women and when you add in the mix work and being close, you can either make so that you are not attractive to any of the male members of the work force or do something else. Asking men not to be men is just as cruel as asking a woman to be a man. One way to augment this issue is to hire a ton of girls to work in the team to maybe dilute the male collective. But in every case this may lead to different and unpredictable results. You can't just board a pirate ship and expect sailors to behave all gentlemanly at once - maybe pirate ship full of amazons? at any rate this is hugely complicated because people are. Complaining about it won't get you anywhere, acting does.
Most of us want to see more females in the force. Most of the time nerds I know work harder, because they want to strut their awesome code and how well it works before female member of the team.
Re: "Lighten up"
#605Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Attraction between men and women exists, and it is even vital for the survival of the human race for the time being. So it has to be dealt with somehow. Not at work.
You have to deal with it by not taking action based on the things you think. That's why you're a professional writing software and not an animal out hunting for scraps of food. (Humanity is defined by emotions, particularly physical attraction. But it's also defined by rational thought; not doing whatever you think your emotions want you to do. So if you're in a meeting with some attractive coworkers, use your ration…
Also, who says that I want to work as a "programming drone" - why do you get to tell me what a professional has to be like? What if I don't like it? I am not arguing for the right to leer at breasts at work, but I don't like the other extreme of being a completely rational machine that you describe either. I am not a robot. (OK, I am a robot, but a very advanced biological one).
Re: "Lighten up"
#606Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a supplement to those posts, I would like a set of instructions about how to talk to women properly (and women with low cut dresses especially). I mean it seems possible that the "I know where I'm sitting" guy was simply crap at giving compliments, rather than a sexist jerk. Attraction between men and women exists, and it is even vital for the survival of the human race for the time being. So it has to be dealt wi…
How to talk to women in the workplace: Treat them first and foremost as persons , not as sexual beings, attractive or otherwise. Imagine she's your sister, your mom, a CEO or Secretary of State, and proceed normally. Be a gentleman. And I'd say the "person-first" rule goes for how to treat other men, too.
Re: "Lighten up"
#607Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why not? If a man (fellow coworker) has nice biceps, I say it (I'm not gay, not trying to seduce him, but being fit is very high on my values list). If a woman (fellow coworker) is cute, I say it (I'm not trying to seduce her, I just think it's nice to give compliments). Asking her to take notes (as in, not asking anyone else), though, is a completely different story. However, I believe that some women handle it in a…
Physical appraisals of another person's attractiveness do not belong in the work place. It puts people in awkward positions, and introduces power asymmetries. And yes, I do not want people at work to say such things about me, regardless of gender.
Re: "Lighten up"
#608Earlier quoted context omitted.
To give an opposing opinion, I'm appalled that anyone said that to her, and am appalled at you for thinking it's a reasonable thing to say. Why would you make sexual comments at work? Making jokes is fine, commenting on clothes is fine, telling a joke involving sex is probably fine (depending on the joke...). Having a conversation (two-way) about sex is fine. Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal i…
Why not? If a man (fellow coworker) has nice biceps, I say it (I'm not gay, not trying to seduce him, but being fit is very high on my values list). If a woman (fellow coworker) is cute, I say it (I'm not trying to seduce her, I just think it's nice to give compliments). Asking her to take notes (as in, not asking anyone else), though, is a completely different story. However, I believe that some women handle it in a…
Why is it that straight guys have to state the obvious whenever they talk about other men? I tell ya, being a gay nerd, in a company full of "straight" nerds, is like being in the gym; watching the bodybuilders do cartwheels, trying to convince their "buds" they aren't gay for checking out that guy who walked by.
I hear borderline homophobic remarks all day. Like the ever popular, "Gay" or "That's gay". Which applies to practically anything that doesn't go their way ("Gay" has replaced the 80's term "weak").
I was in the Army for 10 years (Ranger for 6 of those years). I have a picture of me sitting on a tank, eating MRE's. Sometimes I turn it facing out. A gentle reminder to anyone walking into my office, who the "real" man is. ;)
Re: "Lighten up"
#609Earlier quoted context omitted.
is this kind of response sexist and demeaning Yes Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Because they think it looks good or is comfortable or is fashionable or they didn't have anything clean or their sister bought it for them and they are seeing them for lunch. Have you heard of the Bechdel Test[1]? It's a simple way of seeing gender bias in a movie: It has to…
Bad example: we buy them for the thrill of driving fast. The #1 thing on my list when I was car shopping was how it felt on twisty roads and freeway entrance ramps - and I got a new Focus, not a 458. Shirts don't cause adrenaline responses like that by wearing them.
Many people think men choose a Ferrari to impress women. That just isn't the case.
Nor can one generalize why women wear anything.
Re: "Lighten up"
#610Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course that's offensive. But you're still doing what knightenvy was not, and going beyond "I don't understand." It's perfectly fine to say you don't understand something. But from there, you should try to gain an understanding, and your quote (like the 2 previous definitions of "lighten up") don't do that. And yours adds victim blaming, which antiterra's doesn't really.
But the point is that both of these are really ways of just shutting down conversation, right? "Lighten up" isn't a demand. It's just a way of cutting off the conversation through a retort.