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An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

politico.com

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Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#161

Post by whats_a_quasar »

SauntSolaire wrote: post #52

From the article: > At one point, Sharma asked ChatGPT to define “caste,” and then pointed out the number of times that the word “Hindu” appeared in the computer’s response. “That’s not an accident,” Sharma later said in an interview. “It’s been seeded for such a long time. The word is a hate brand.” I for one am hoping this argument technique doesn't catch on. Pattern matches like a fallacy, "argument from LLM" or s…

Also, I can't replicate it? I gave ChatGPT the prompts "Define caste," "explain caste to me," and "discuss caste discrimination" and the responses didn't include the word Hindu once.

Notable excerpts:

"Castes have been particularly prevalent in certain societies, notably in parts of South Asia, such as India, Nepal, and Sri Lanka." ... "It's important to note that caste systems are not limited to South Asia, as similar systems have existed in other parts of the world. The term "caste" may also be used more broadly to describe any system of social stratification based on hereditary or ascribed characteristics that assign people to different social roles and statuses."

I suppose they OpenAI could have patched ChatGPT between then and now, but I'd like to see the full prompt and conversation history she used.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#162

Post by blahblahblack »

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #16

I'm legitimately confused about the strength of opposition to the measure. It seems like it should be a small, uncontroversial, update to protected categories. Are people opposing the term "caste" appearing in U.S. law? Is the concern that the law will cause other Americans to judge Indian/Nepalese/Sri Lankan communities? If anyone here can explain the emotional significance of the bill to someone who is not South As…

I am an Indian who oppose this bill, because of multiple reasons. A good amount of Indian population here in America is form a Hindu background. And the majority of that population doesn't really believe in a caste system. I have never ever ill intentionally asked anyone their caste. But the way the bill is worded, It implies that anyone in my lineage can be sued based on my perceived caste (based on allegations of course) that is inherited to me against my will. That's is literally discriminatory law. The bill defines caste as: “Caste” means an individual’s perceived position in a system of social stratification on the basis of inherited status. My son who never ever knew the term caste, can be sued when he grows up if in his 40s he becomes a manager and promoted someone which not promoting someone else. Right or wrong aside, my son did nothing wrong to be automatically finding himself in a category of a "perceived caste" that can be sued for caste discrimination. Mankind should work against such categorizations including religions.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#163

Post by ScoobleDoodle »

eklavya wrote: post #149
lannisterstark wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It must be an absolutely horrible of a mix in the US for this to be 8:10. The US is quite large so this is a YMMV thing. I solve this issue by just not associating very much with my ex-countrymen. I get enough of them when I go to visit my parents, I don't need to constantly mingle with more Indians. I have a solid set of diverse friends (one or two are Indian). It helps that in my workplace I tend not to think of…

I don't understand how educated people behave this way. I have seen this in illiterates but modern educated people behaving this way is absolutely mind boggling.

What do you mean by “behave this way”? I have no idea what in particular you’re referring to. It could be parent. Or something in grand parent and you’re supporting parent.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#164

Post by rawgabbit »

roflchoppa wrote: post #131

> she received pushback even from fellow progressive Democrats. Newsom’s office would not say whether he supports the bill. > In mid-July, about 250 people gathered at an events center in Fremont, an East Bay suburb in Wahab’s district, for “Caste Con,” a full day of programming against the bill… Fremont Mayor Lily Mei, who lost to Wahab in last year’s race for the local state Senate seat, was given a standing ovatio…

I thought SE Asian referred to Laos Cambodia Vietnam Myanmar and Indonesia? Now it also refers to India?

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#165

Post by bandyaboot »

ramraj07 wrote: post #43

If I have to count the number of times someone senior to me or some colleague has judged me or severed ties with me because of my caste, it will be 8-10. All in the United States. If anything it’s far worse here than when I grew up in India. I’m not of the “lowest caste” as it’s perceived but by looks I am often mistaken to be a Brahmin, one of the highest ones. So my fellow Brahmins get offended when I’m not strictl…

I don’t know a lot about this subject and am definitely open to my perception being wrong, but reading about the opposition to this makes we wonder whether it’s akin to the south during the civil war—“we want to secede because of injustices against us, totally not because we want to keep slavery”.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#166

Post by FreshStart »

tremon wrote: post #97
margalabargala wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's mentioned in the article is that as caste is a primarily SE Asian phenomenon, this is a bill that targets SE Asians. People tend not to like being singled out on the basis of their race. Mentioned in the article was one person who tried to address this by banning discrimination "on the basis of ancestry, including caste" which seems to me to be a completely reasonable adjustment.

Maybe caste discrimination in the US is primarily a SE-Asian phenomenon, but there's plenty examples of caste systems in African nations as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_systems_in_Africa?useski...

Question: Is social discrimination based on wealth via witchcraft banned? In Africa those who are entrapaneurial and socially stick out, get hammered in by traditional witchcraft religions..

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#167

Post by flangola7 »

whatsup7123 wrote: post #84
ramraj07 wrote: post #43

If I have to count the number of times someone senior to me or some colleague has judged me or severed ties with me because of my caste, it will be 8-10. All in the United States. If anything it’s far worse here than when I grew up in India. I’m not of the “lowest caste” as it’s perceived but by looks I am often mistaken to be a Brahmin, one of the highest ones. So my fellow Brahmins get offended when I’m not strictl…

The new law that is being passed will not solve your personal issues with socializing. The law is designed to protect you from unfair discrimination by your employer, i.e. being fired due to your caste.

The point sailed right over your head. Before you ask what I mean, I want you to think of a few possibilities first.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#168

Post by dotnet00 »

rectang wrote: post #157
dotnet00 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difference being that discrimination by race is already illegal and therefore banning white supremacy amounts to limiting speech. Banning white supremacy would be equivalent to banning support of caste discrimination, which is different from banning caste discrimination itself.

> banning white supremacy amounts to limiting speech I'm saying that I'm not threatened by the existing constraints on white supremacy: not limitations on speech, but the actual bans on discriminatory practices.

Ah I misread your first line. I don't think many people, white or otherwise feel tarnished by the banning of literal race discrimination such as white supremacy, which probably contributed to my misreading.

I figured you were referring to banning it even in the way that white supremacists currently exist (ie noisy bigots who would get in legal trouble if they actually discriminated in a meaningful way), which I think more people would oppose on principle.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#169

Post by gumby »

whatsup7123 wrote: post #84
ramraj07 wrote: post #43

If I have to count the number of times someone senior to me or some colleague has judged me or severed ties with me because of my caste, it will be 8-10. All in the United States. If anything it’s far worse here than when I grew up in India. I’m not of the “lowest caste” as it’s perceived but by looks I am often mistaken to be a Brahmin, one of the highest ones. So my fellow Brahmins get offended when I’m not strictl…

The new law that is being passed will not solve your personal issues with socializing. The law is designed to protect you from unfair discrimination by your employer, i.e. being fired due to your caste.

Changing norms in one place can influence changes in others. Can anyone not believe that Truman's desegregation of the armed forces in the late 1940s helped set the stage white acceptance of the later civil rights movements of the 50s and 60s?

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#170

Post by tremon »

whatsup7123 wrote: post #115
mkoubaa wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this was tested in court with a caste discrimination case and it wasn't clear enough that it applied. I don't know CA case law enough. Based on the article I have the impression that this law originated from insiders in the legal system so I assume it's necessary to call out caste by name.

To my knowledge, the only caste discrimination case in CA history is the "Cisco" case. It was dismissed with prejudice.

Why was it dismissed? Was it due to lack of clear legislation on the subject matter?

You cannot use a dismissed case as proof that existing laws are sufficient.

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