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How to Apologize

philomousos.blogspot.com

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Re: How to Apologize

#171

Post by georgeorwell »

protomyth wrote: post #160
georgeorwell wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was obviously a throwaway account, but nevertheless I just thought I would say that if you want to find out where your ego is too strongly invested, you need only look as far as those areas of your life where you are unable to laugh at yourself. I mean come on, man. I actually agreed with the rest of what you wrote...

It just struct me as a snippy reply and someone trying to laugh off a subject that keeps coming up in our industry. I hate when people laugh off this type of stuff. I figured I'd try (not much of a writer really) to give a less snippy answer. I didn't really succeed. I apologize if that wasn't your intent for the reply and thought behind it. I can laugh at myself (and I do quite often). If I didn't I think I would ha…

It's fine, I'm not offended. The thing is it's very clearly not a meritocracy. There was a comment recently about how Linus got about $1M out of his RedHat shares, and how this seems totally unfair next to someone like Zuckerberg or even say GitHub. The easy money flowing around this current startup bubble is what's attracting the frat boy mentality. As far as empathy is concerned, I think it's pretty much a write-off when mediated by technology. Hell, we can't even get the tone of each other's posts right. And to generalize quite a lot, empathy and making money are just sort of fundamentally odds with each other. I'm sure you'd never see booze bitches (their mindset, not mine) at a free software hackathon.

Re: How to Apologize

#172

Post by samth »

batista wrote: post #118
samth wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So one is only allowed to have the "right" opinions? I think it's pretty obvious that everyone should try to have correct ideas. For example, if you think that Mac OS X is the world's most widely-used desktop OS, then you are wrong, and you should revise your thinking on the subject. Similarly, if you think that IP guarantees reliable delivery, you should think something else , because you're not right. Thinking that…

> I think it's pretty obvious that everyone should try to have correct ideas. For example, if you think that Mac OS X is the world's most widely-used desktop OS, then you are wrong, and you should revise your thinking on the subject. Similarly, if you think that IP guarantees reliable delivery, you should think something else, because you're not right. That about factual correctness. Another ballgame altogether. Whet…

Thinking that women are appropriate as "perks" is way more wrong than thinking that IP is reliable

Re: How to Apologize

#173

Post by prodigal_erik »

saalweachter wrote: post #139
nirvdrum wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more relevant and recent example is whether you support software patents. Those opposed to them rail against those in favor of them pretty hard. Some are now making hiring decisions based upon that. Should I not be allowed to express my views on software patents simply because you don't agree with them? You'd like to paint it as a black & white issue, but I don't see it that way. Sorry for the liberal use of pronou…

Detour from the main point: as a programmer, I'm pretty OK with programmers and programmer-employers coming to blows over software patents. Programmers are still in a bit of a weird spot with respect to the rest of the working class. Get fired from your job as a cashier at Walmart because of your opinions, you'll be lucky to find another job. Get fired from your job as a programmer because of your opinions, you'll pr…

> As a programmer, I just don't feel the same employment-insecurity a lot of non-programmers I know do.

I think this perspective is common recently, but only due to the current boom/bubble. I don't expect that to last forever, and somewhat anticipate the kind of insecurity you're describing (although I don't feel it right now), which is why I don't say anything even slightly controversial under my True Name.

Re: How to Apologize

#174

Post by anthuswilliams »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #66
carlcoryell wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many places in our society where kids can do stupid and immature things but I don't think the adults in our engineering profession need to support or sponsor them. I respect Heroku etc for pulling their sponsorship dollars. I'm a huge fan of supporting adult standards of behavior to participate in adult society and I have no patience for sexism in our field.

Perhaps I should have been clearer. You are correct. We can and should encourage adult behavior. Heroku and the rest did the right thing -- from an adult, socially-responsible position. There is nothing new about this, it's the way professional groups have conducted themselves since forever. From a longer-term view, this incident will still be around 50 years from now when these guys are grandfathers. This is complet…

This story won't be around in 50 years. We think it will because when we grew up, our social flubs simply disappeared. Now they're around forever, but the important thing is they don't exist in isolation.

This story, like all the embarrassing comments I have personally published in forums across the internet, can for all intents and purposes be just as lost to time in a deluge of data as it can in a drought.

A year from now, when one searches the names of one of these founders, or the name of their company, this episode will not even appear in the first few pages of Google search results. Perhaps for a person with a sufficiently strong memory that he/she was specifically searching for this exact story, the incident could be dredged up. But for the vast majority of humanity, probably even those looking for some vague form of dirt on sqoot, the episode will have vanished.

Re: How to Apologize

#175

Post by cerales »

hythloday wrote: post #65
hullibu wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe in freedom of opinion and speech, but I also believe in freedom of sense. Believing that slavery is good is not only a generally offensive position, but it is an opinion that implies poor morals. Therefore not only in general company is expressing such an opinion a poor choice if one wishes to be socially accepted, but having the opinion itself is an abomination. Being easily offended is not a good thing. A…

Here are some other things that have been considered abominations at one point or another by a dominant culture: homosexual sex; Jews marrying Germans; property right and suffrage for women; atheism (or virtually every religion, in fact). I am pretty sure that people who held the view that those things were abominable were not Dr. Evil caricatures, but honest people who sincerely believed that these things were utter…

Athenian Democracy was not a rule of the people, it was the rule of a massive slave and underclass population by a tiny, exclusively male minority who happened to have a certain internal decision-making process.

Re: How to Apologize

#176

Post by parfe »

orblivion wrote: post #156
parfe wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why you think there is some sweet spot for a professional event where a sexist joke can be appropriate. Problems with your rewrite: Women: Yes, we aim to make a welcoming atmosphere for women who want to participate in our hackathon. (And for those men still afraid of getting out-programmed by a girl, we've hired an all-female event staff to serve you cold beer.) 1. Boys and Girls are children. Men…

This reaction seems to be the result of some combination of my own social ineptitude, and your being sensitive about the issue. Either way I can see why it's not going to be that easy. > 2. You imply that being out-programmed by a woman will hurt a man's ego. This is outright sexist and perpetuates the idea that men should be better than women. The point was to make fun of sexism, really. It makes fun of the side of…

Ah yes, I obviously share a piece of the blame for being sensitive about how hard you work to secure the future of sexist jokes.

Wouldn't want to have to spend half a second considering the implications of our actions, now would we, Mr orblivion?

Re: How to Apologize

#177

Post by MikeMacMan »

hcayless wrote: post #70
meterplech wrote: post #31

The first thing I thought when reading this article is that it's a shame the author chose this topic as his way of framing the post. If you remove the focus completely from the potentially flame-war issue this is based on there is some great advice in this article. Specifically: "When I worked at Lulu, Bob Young used to say that whenever you screw up, it's actually a tremendous opportunity to win a customer's loyalty…

I framed the post around Sqoot's apology because that was what gave me the idea. I didn't intend to slap them around any more than they have been. It's just an example of what I think was meant to be a genuine apology that fell totally flat. But yes, my central point is that when someone (or the whole Internet) is pissed off at you, you have their attention and a chance to turn things around, if you have the right go…

That was my impression, too. You weren't grandstanding or sounding sanctimonious, but rather saw an opportunity to write an informative article using Sqoot at an example. It was well-written and entertaining. Thanks for writing it!

Re: How to Apologize

#178

Post by creamyhorror »

losvedir wrote: post #46

What if there had been a line immediately following with the genders reversed, with attractive serving men as a perk? Are people upset with the objectification of women, or the assumption that women wouldn't be participants and aren't the audience of that flyer? You need to know what the offensive issue is before you can apologize and correct it. Does the apology go more "We're sorry we contributed to the objectifica…

Think of it this way: if you were a African-American, or a Hispanic, or an Asian, would you be happy to attend the event if one perk was "Asians: Tired from your long hack-a-thon? Have our hot Asians bring you a refreshment or carry you to the lounge area to take a power nap."

What does this reflect? Simply that objectification has much more of an effect when the group being objectified is not the dominant or majority one. Sure you don't care if men are being objectified, but you very well might if you were an ethnic minority and you've been enduring overt or subtle racism all your life. It's the same with women, who in many places still put up with objectification and obviously don't like it.

Re: How to Apologize

#179

Post by danssig »

natep wrote: post #165
victork2 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, your messages are one of a kind compared to the heavy rain of "holier than thou" blog posts on that matter. As a non american(coming from a more egalitarian society, or at least a less objectifying society about women) this is for me a totally ridiculous issue. I'm pretty sure the same people that are being so offended by that small sentence have been in the last months to a Strip Club or a bar with pretti…

So, female participation in the tech industry is at or near 50% in your country? No women steer clear of the industry because of sexism (real or perceived)? I would like to know which country this is, so I can find out what you're doing right.

Women steer clear of the tech industry because of the sexism that things like sales don't have, I take it?
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