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Yenish people

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Re: Yenish people

#61

Post by hef19898 »

H8crilA wrote: post #60
hef19898 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, failing to adress the root causes behind the statistics, and failure to properly report and read them, is what enabled the AfD Le Pen to actually use those issues for their populist agendas. Brexit was a different thing.

You can't address the problem if you can't talk about it. Also it's not a maths problem that somehow some people got wrong, it's a problem with entire neighborhoods where it's dangerous to go to.

Like what neighborhoods? No seriouspy, which ones? And don't give me the no-go zone BS.

Also, we kind of discuss travelers, somehow I think this group doesn't have their own neighborhoods....

Re: Yenish people

#62

Post by H8crilA »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #51
H8crilA wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crime statistics are real, though. Failing to recognize the problem created the likes of Alternative für Deutschland, Marine Le Pen, Brexit. Let me reiterate it, because it is crucial: liberal policy of pretending that the problem doesn't exist is what created all those garbage political organization. Which, interestingly, are often co-financed by Russia.

It's worth pointing out that you're using the word "liberal policy" in its US meaning, which is rather misleading for the EU. Liberals in Europe are mostly center right-wing, for low taxes and for more company freedom (as in "neoliberal"). There are some left-wing liberals left, but they are somewhat rare. As for the claim that "ignoring the problems" is a "liberal policy" - that's a made up strawman.

1) You're right. I guess I just translated it :)

2) You're wrong. Example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_area

> In April 2019, the publication of the list by police was criticised by municipality politicians as it was stigmatising and dissuaded investors. Police responded that they saw no reason to make the list a secret, and that the list served the purpose of providing a uniform basis of evaluating districts across the country. Interior minister Morgan Johansson stated that the list will continue to be public information.

You can find many other such examples if you try.

Re: Yenish people

#63

Post by H8crilA »

hef19898 wrote: post #61
H8crilA wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't address the problem if you can't talk about it. Also it's not a maths problem that somehow some people got wrong, it's a problem with entire neighborhoods where it's dangerous to go to.

Like what neighborhoods? No seriouspy, which ones? And don't give me the no-go zone BS. Also, we kind of discuss travelers, somehow I think this group doesn't have their own neighborhoods....

I just posted this in another comment, but I'll repost

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_area

Granted, it's not nearly as bad as say south american favelas, where the government has no power whatsoever, not even to charge for utilities. But the point is that such places used to not exist at all in some countries.

BTW, this is not just a "white people" problem. Perceived or real lack of safety creates unsavory political options everywhere. If tomorrow, somehow, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict were to be magically resolved, Hamas would probably disappear overnight.

Re: Yenish people

#64

Post by OfSanguineFire »

hef19898 wrote: post #45
H8crilA wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crime statistics are real, though. Failing to recognize the problem created the likes of Alternative für Deutschland, Marine Le Pen, Brexit. Let me reiterate it, because it is crucial: liberal policy of pretending that the problem doesn't exist is what created all those garbage political organization. Which, interestingly, are often co-financed by Russia.

No, failing to adress the root causes behind the statistics, and failure to properly report and read them, is what enabled the AfD Le Pen to actually use those issues for their populist agendas. Brexit was a different thing.

What if the root cause of crime is that certain traveler families feel that they can steal with impunity because it will move on, and that stealing from sedentary populations is a central part of their culture? Throughout history there has been tension and crime between traveler populations (of whatever ethnic source) and sedentary populations, and what is your solution for addressing the root cause there?

Of course, most of Europe’s Roma are themselves now a sedentary population that deserve effective invention to improve infrastructure and quality of life instead of being automatically labeled criminals. But a population of travelers remains.

Re: Yenish people

#65

Post by hef19898 »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #64
hef19898 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, failing to adress the root causes behind the statistics, and failure to properly report and read them, is what enabled the AfD Le Pen to actually use those issues for their populist agendas. Brexit was a different thing.

What if the root cause of crime is that certain traveler families feel that they can steal with impunity because it will move on, and that stealing from sedentary populations is a central part of their culture? Throughout history there has been tension and crime between traveler populations (of whatever ethnic source) and sedentary populations, and what is your solution for addressing the root cause there? Of course,…

What if, just bear with me, what if said traveller families do, again bear with me, not see theft as part of their culture? Because it is called root cause analysis and not "root cause speculation" for a reason...

Re: Yenish people

#66

Post by hef19898 »

H8crilA wrote: post #63
hef19898 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what neighborhoods? No seriouspy, which ones? And don't give me the no-go zone BS. Also, we kind of discuss travelers, somehow I think this group doesn't have their own neighborhoods....

I just posted this in another comment, but I'll repost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_area Granted, it's not nearly as bad as say south american favelas, where the government has no power whatsoever, not even to charge for utilities. But the point is that such places used to not exist at all in some countries. BTW, this is not just a "white people" problem. Perceived or real lack of safety creates unsavory…

Sweden again... Why am I not surprised?

And hell, one can even spend vacation in some favelas. Jesus...

Edit: From your own source

>> The increase is reported to be due to better reporting, not a changing situation.[5] The overall trend is that these areas are improving.[6]

>> Work on improving the areas requires cooperation with several parties like local landlords and organisations, but fear of gentrification may cause problems.[10] -> If done well, that cpupd adress some.of the underlying social problems, I fear it might just lead to even more gentrification and make everything worse for everyone. Except rich investors, that is.

So seriously, what the heck?

Re: Yenish people

#67

Post by OfSanguineFire »

hef19898 wrote: post #65
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the root cause of crime is that certain traveler families feel that they can steal with impunity because it will move on, and that stealing from sedentary populations is a central part of their culture? Throughout history there has been tension and crime between traveler populations (of whatever ethnic source) and sedentary populations, and what is your solution for addressing the root cause there? Of course,…

What if, just bear with me, what if said traveller families do, again bear with me, not see theft as part of their culture? Because it is called root cause analysis and not "root cause speculation" for a reason...

A friend is a sociologist from the Balkans who has several times carried out fieldwork among Balkan Roma families who move seasonally to Western Europe and, being of Roma ancestry herself, has won interview subjects’ trust. She reports that her interviewees readily view stealing as a part of their culture; they themselves regard it and begging as the two pillars of their population’s economy and have a developed approach to dividing those tasks up within the community. So, no, this isn’t speculation.

Again, the fallacy people make is assuming that any Roma is a criminal, when the Roma today are a largely sedentary population, and one deprived of effective public services. But some level of theft among groups maintaining a traveler mode of life is exactly what one would expect after centuries of documented interaction between travelers and sedentary populations (and not just in Europe and not just involving Roma).

Re: Yenish people

#68

Post by anon2929 »

Biologist123 wrote: post #58

There is still a tradition of very small family-owned travelling circuses in parts of Germany, where tents seat about 40-50 people, and all acts are performed by circus family members. I wondered who the performers were and what there origin was. They definitely spoke good German, but the circus names don't seem 100% Germanic. At one I attended 3 or 4 years ago, the ringmaster threw daggers at volunteer spectators, m…

Traveling carnivals have very little to do with itinerant groups like Yenish people or travelers. Due to itinerant lifestyles, there can occasionally be members of itinerant groups working in that occupation but that is not typical. Most carnies have a home base. And many historically itinerant groups have become “sedentary” including many Yenish people. Though over time the sedentary tend to assimilate, intermarry and lose their distinct cultural character.

Re: Yenish people

#69

Post by eru »

hnbad wrote: post #37
eru wrote: post #31

> The Kingdom of Prussia in 1842 introduced a law forcing municipalities to provide social welfare to permanent residents without citizenship. As a consequence, there were attempts to prevent Yenish people from taking permanent residence.[6] Recently established settlements of Yenish, Sinti, and Roma, dubbed "gypsy colonies" (Zigeunerkolonien), were discouraged and attempts were made to incite the settlers to move aw…

Well, it's less that the law led to difficulties and more that the law ignited pre-existing bigotry, similar to some poor white Americans being opposed to welfare out of biases against poor black Americans thanks to a successful (implicitly racial) hysteria about "welfare queens". The Prussians were "fine"[0] with travelers as long as they were second-class citizens who didn't have access to welfare. As soon as citiz…

Oh, I'm not here to defend bigotry.

I'm here to point out that bigotry is often stronger than well-meaning laws.

Re: Yenish people

#70

Post by hef19898 »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #67
hef19898 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if, just bear with me, what if said traveller families do, again bear with me, not see theft as part of their culture? Because it is called root cause analysis and not "root cause speculation" for a reason...

A friend is a sociologist from the Balkans who has several times carried out fieldwork among Balkan Roma families who move seasonally to Western Europe and, being of Roma ancestry herself, has won interview subjects’ trust. She reports that her interviewees readily view stealing as a part of their culture; they themselves regard it and begging as the two pillars of their population’s economy and have a developed appr…

Do you have a source to that? Because all statistics I know actually show no real problems around theft and other peoperty crimes. Not saying said crime doesn't exist, also not saying travellers aren't committing them (because of course every group has its criminals). All I dispute is that some crime is a reason to discriminate a whole grpup, further marginalize them, and making it easier for them see no problem in committing crimes as a way of striking back.

Also, viewing something as part of a culture, and actually doing it are still two different things. Also, I'd love to see claims like thqt, when if backed by interviews, further being put into context by actual numbers, especially from a field sociologist. You know, the whole strong claim, strong evidence thing.

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