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"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

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Re: "Lighten up"

#281

Post by sadface »

yelsgib wrote: post #232
flatline wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the guy is probably suffering from his own insecurities, but the bottom line is that he allowed his issues to place him in a situation of antagonizing a co-worker, probably without any repercussions, which speaks to a general climate of discrimination against women in the workplace. Still, some of your other points are interesting and I feel are valid in a larger context. Zen monasteries in Japan were se…

My point is that there is no "bottom line." Your analogy to a Zen monastery is a good one. For a lot of men (myself included), programming/chess/mathematics/etc. is an ESCAPE from women. I feel like what has happened in the past 10 years (note I'm not saying this is "wrong" - just that it's what happened) is that these monasteries have been invaded by women and that men have been acting very awkwardly. Here's the rea…

There are many problems with your post. First of all, women used to be far more represented in programming than they are today, with nearly 40% of CS degrees going to women in the early to mid 80's. These rates have been declining ever since and are continuing to decline. This is not a case of "women invading the man's space" as you seem to think, this is a case of women fleeing it. See: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/business/16digi.html?_r=2

Secondly, you pass off these crass remarks by male programmers as mere awkwardness from poor social outcasts. How then do you classify the same type of remarks when made by, say, construction workers to attractive passers-by? Are they merely sad social outcasts, or are they brutes for taking advantage of their social setting to harass and demean women?

Women are harassed regularly both in and out of the workplace, and the responsibility needs to be on the harasser to change their behavior, not on the harassed to "find compassion".

Re: "Lighten up"

#282

Post by rosser »

dbecker wrote: post #270
estel wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter? It can still be the complete account of someone's reasoning for wearing particular clothing.

This is about to get massively downvoted... but oh well. Of course it matters! Would you say it's "complete account of my reasoning" if I wore t-shirts to work because they are comfortable? But I wear a dress shirt and tie because my company is trying to project just that type of stuffy image. The tie is uncomfortable... but that's life. The breast-comment in this story wasn't the appropriate way to tell her if she w…

You're the one that chose to work in an environment where a coat and tie are de rigueur, and the comment about a low-cut dress had fuck-all to do with whether she was dressed professionally or not. It was verbal leering, pure and simple.

Re: "Lighten up"

#283

Post by adrianparsons »

drostie wrote: post #227
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

Sexism is endemic to the society and to the relationships which generate that comment. So, right. Imagine that you're a woman. You're told from a very young age that you have to watch what you wear, and where you wear it, and how you walk in it, how well-lit it is -- you don't want that sort of Attention. And wear high heels, they make you more attractive -- but don't wear high heels because they might be clumsy if y…

A female friend who worked in an office setting described it this way to me:

"I can't wear anything too revealing, because I'm perceived as easy or slutty. I can't wear anything too modest, because it makes me seem prudish or not fun. I have to find that perfect middle ground -- between professional and cute. Every single day."

Re: "Lighten up"

#284

Post by Jabbles »

hythloday wrote: post #274
Jabbles wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope that my criticism helps. I think "I can imagine myself saying" implies he thought it was "reasonable".

I can totally see how you read him as justifying himself; I read him as being conflicted about being brought up to believe that it was OK to do things he now thinks aren't OK, so I wanted to speak up in appreciation that someone would put himself in a position to be criticized like that--I think "masculinity" (whatever that is) benefits from having people say that.

Absolutely, I agree - I appreciate him expressing his opinion, as it's provoked a good discussion. However, I still disapprove of that opinion.

Also, I misread that as "censor", my mistake.

Re: "Lighten up"

#285

Post by jonstjohn »

drostie wrote: post #252
jonstjohn wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied (and loved) Physics during my undergraduate education, but left it sophomore year because Physics 200 was filled with immature (seemingly) teenage boys with no social skills. I was looking for a broader experience. Tried biology (study of life, better male/female ratio), studied abroad in China, then graduated with a degree in Religion. It took me quite a few years to start working in software development,…

A bit off topic, but if you ever want a syllabus of what you've missed in physics with some links to good material, Gerard 't Hooft's page is pretty spiffy-keen: http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~hooft101/theorist.html

This is really cool - thanks!

Re: "Lighten up"

#286

Post by yelsgib »

mindstab wrote: post #277
yelsgib wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that there is no "bottom line." Your analogy to a Zen monastery is a good one. For a lot of men (myself included), programming/chess/mathematics/etc. is an ESCAPE from women. I feel like what has happened in the past 10 years (note I'm not saying this is "wrong" - just that it's what happened) is that these monasteries have been invaded by women and that men have been acting very awkwardly. Here's the rea…

So women who are demonstrably and statistically still suffering under male oppression now need to treat you softly and with love while you are accidentally crappy back to them? Nurture you back to health? What was that you were saying about men not being puppies?

I do not feed trolls.

Re: "Lighten up"

#287

Post by xibernetik »

Swizec wrote: post #180

Honest question: Why is it so bad when guys treat gals like they're just one of the guys? Guys give each other small disparaging jabs all the time, be it the workplace or a party between friends, it's what we do to fit in; it's how our social groups work and what keeps them together. I've never been female, so I don't know what it looks like from their perspective, but to me telling a lass to go back to the kitchen i…

It's not the same level at all. Telling a guy to stick to computers because he sucks at talking to girls in a technical industry is like telling a woman to go back to the kitchen when she's a chef.

Telling a guy to stick to computers because he sucks at talking to girls when his job is to run and promote a female-targeted wedding convention is a little closer to the mark.

As a female, getting told "stick to computers, you suck at flirting" when you're technically-inclined is a lot less offensive than "go back to the kitchen" -- not to mention that the first is a jab related to observation of an individual (presumably there isn't a stereotype that all men suck at talking to women) rather than a jab related to your chromosomes. It's exacerbated by the fact it's highlighting "something here doesn't belong with the others~...".

Re: "Lighten up"

#288

Post by wpietri »

mhartl wrote: post #93

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" ... Go to HR and get stuck with his work when they move or can him? The thing is, we live in a legal environment where she probably could go to HR and get him moved or fired for saying this. And yet, some men are still sexist jerks to women in the workplace. This suggests that all the blog-posting and HN-comment-hand-wringing in the world won't…

No. A thousand times no.

Guys make these comments either a) because they are irredeemable assholes, or b) they don't understand the harm they cause.

If they are permanent jerks, firing them can and will help. For everybody else, then discussion is useful.

There is no reason to accept this kind of bullshit, and I refuse to.

Re: "Lighten up"

#289

Post by javascriptlol »

antiterra wrote: post #279
javascriptlol wrote: post #219

The problem with these posts is that we only hear the horror stories. We get a sensational picture of constant harassment from one unlucky person. Most of what was written here was outright harassment. In many places it would be seen as outright illegal for the company to allow this to continue. I take issue with complaining about "subtle" sexism, however. Life is not fair for men either. In fact, unfairness is unive…

We're not talking about "life" in any sort of universal context. Whatever 'female privilege' you can try to conjure up in general is largely irrelevant to this very specific setting: a technology profession. Is it really unobtainable to not tend towards choosing the woman to be the head of the potluck or to take notes just because she's a woman? Is it really that unobtainable to not make jokes about PMS or breasts? W…

You are painting these things as universal. If there were some rule about women and potlucks I'd care. As it is, there is not. I have never even seen a potluck in the workplace! There are much bigger, structural problems to worry about right now. It's like we're on a boat with a hole in the bottom and every interest group is complaining that their feet are getting wetter than all the others. We wouldn't have this problem if the environment were more conducive to smaller businesses - women could avoid these problems by becoming their own bosses. Instead of escaping our entrapments we are arguing for better conditions in the prison.

Re: "Lighten up"

#290

Post by OneBytePerGreen »

Dunno. I'm a woman, and I think that blog poster needs to lighten up.

I've worked in IT for years - usually as the only woman on the team - and I've never felt degraded or discriminated against for being female. Maybe slight prejudices in the beginning when the guys think I'm not as good as them, but I enjoy proving them wrong. There is banter, and sometimes it's not 100% HR approved, but I've never felt that it was mean spirited or intended to put me down. I've found that by and large, computer engineers are super-nice, funny, and respectful towards women.

The comment about the guy noticing her low-cut dress and wanting to sit near her... not entirely appropriate, but is this really bad enough to run to HR and complain? That said, I wouldn't feel comfortable drawing attention with my clothes, so I would never wear something low-cut. I find that a lightweight cotton dress shirt is more comfortable than a tight, low-cut top anyway. If someone asked me to arrange a pot-luck or bring them coffee, it would simply not be happening.

I'm on the East Coast though. Maybe all the disrespectful frat boy "brogrammers" are working on the West Coast?

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