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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#221

Post by ajross »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131
klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

This is always where geeks run off the rails in discussions like this. We want to come up with rules for things: either this statement is "sexist" or it is not, and here is the objective reason for that decision.

But it misses the point. Context matters. In a utopian environment where women felt equally respected, sure, a sideways/slightly-inappropriate comment would be fine. In some workplaces today that might even be true. But it's not the norm, and in the real world people feel disrespected by this kind of treatment. Not everyone (but some, sure, as I'm sure someone will point out needlessly) likes the fact that their perfectly "normal" clothing choice can make them "attractive" in one context but the butt of a joke in another. Men, on the whole, don't deal with that.

Re: "Lighten up"

#222

Post by Cushman »

seanc722 wrote: post #175
Tichy wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe that low cut dresses are the only possible solution here.

Erm.. Why does it have to be a low cut dress. I see plenty of light dresses that would be suitable for professional situations that wouldnt bring out these comments. Men should be allowed o have there shirts unbuttoned down to their chest because their chests are hot from all the hair?

> Men should be allowed o have there shirts unbuttoned down to their chest

...yes?

Re: "Lighten up"

#223

Post by daenz »

nknight wrote: post #196
daenz wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my lifetime, drunk driving and spoual abuse have become socially unacceptable Seeing the change in your lifetime does not mean the entire process occurred in your lifetime. How many lifetimes is it taking for women, gays, and black people to become treated as equals, and we're still not there. Like I said, it takes lifetimes. I'm not saying don't fight discrimination. I'm saying she should consider her health. U…

Interracial marriage was illegal in much of the US until just 45 years ago. The Stonewall Riots were the same year we landed on the moon. Romer v. Evans wasn't until 1996, and Lawrence v. Texas is just eight years old. You have a poor sense of history and the passage of time if you do not recognize the staggering speed with which the world can and has changed.

I'll say it again:

> Seeing the change in your lifetime does not mean the entire process occurred in your lifetime.

When did slavery start in america, the 1600s?, and when was interracial marriage legalized, 45 years ago? That is the timeline of change for african americans. Just because you see the end of something in your lifetime, it does not mean the process also started in your lifetime.

Re: "Lighten up"

#224

Post by yelsgib »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #179
yelsgib wrote: post #148

I find posts like this extremely frustrating. Yes, I feel sorry for this woman. However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society. The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working i…

Being a victim is no excuse to victimize others.

There is no "nexus" of victimhood. I'm saying that we're hyper-focusing on one particular form of suffering.

Re: "Lighten up"

#225

Post by maco »

jberryman wrote: post #167

Kind of meta, but I've noticed two things from this thread 1) I think I always imagine everyone here as a man, unless they identify themselves otherwise or I notice their username suggests they're female, and 2) reading the female voices here really gave me the sense of HN as a much richer, more interesting community

I do #1 backwards because LinuxChix was my introduction to the world of online tech communities.

Re: "Lighten up"

#226

Post by wpietri »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131
klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

It is offensive and inappropriate because it's sexist in this context.

Re: "Lighten up"

#227

Post by drostie »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131
klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

Sexism is endemic to the society and to the relationships which generate that comment.

So, right. Imagine that you're a woman. You're told from a very young age that you have to watch what you wear, and where you wear it, and how you walk in it, how well-lit it is -- you don't want that sort of Attention. And wear high heels, they make you more attractive -- but don't wear high heels because they might be clumsy if you have to flee from Unwanted Attention.

The problem isn't the clothes. The problem is the Unwanted Attention. As a man, your defenses against sexual assault -- at least the ones that you're taught by the culture -- are chiefly, "don't go to jail." That's because that's the only major place you have to worry about Unwanted Attention. There are maybe some Bad Neighborhoods which you're asked to memorize and route around in addition.

"I know where I'm sitting!" paints women as the objects of your sexual indulgence, and commits to undressing them with your eyes. That's probably Unwanted Attention, but it is not the Problem.

The Problem is "Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention?" -- where you imply that the woman is ultimately responsible for the sad state of affairs culminating in the Unwanted Attention, rather than the males thus attendant and the culture thus pervasive.

Re: "Lighten up"

#228

Post by hythloday »

Jabbles wrote: post #172
klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

To give an opposing opinion, I'm appalled that anyone said that to her, and am appalled at you for thinking it's a reasonable thing to say. Why would you make sexual comments at work? Making jokes is fine, commenting on clothes is fine, telling a joke involving sex is probably fine (depending on the joke...). Having a conversation (two-way) about sex is fine. Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal i…

I don't think we should be censuring someone who is brave enough to acknowledge their sexism. I also think you're misreading the post, which didn't say that it was "reasonable"...it said it was "cool". Crucial difference.

Re: "Lighten up"

#229

Post by daenz »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #212
daenz wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said nobody tried? Just out of curiosity, if you went back in time to early America, would you rally some slaves together and tell them all not to put up with the shit from their owners? Would you call them cowards for not all trying to run away? Or would you tell them to "hang in there, things will get better"?

Uhhh, I'd smuggle them somewhere else where they could live free, duh. This isn't exactly the best example. Also, are you seriously saying that you'd tell folks who will live their entire lives and die as slaves to just "hang in there"?

> Uhhh, I'd smuggle them somewhere else where they could live free, duh. This isn't exactly the best example.

Sure you would, buddy. Just like you're out there beating up the people who are oppressing the original poster, like fucking batman.

> Also, are you seriously saying that you'd tell folks who will live their entire lives and die as slaves to just "hang in there"?

Yeah, I would. Because if you have any foresight, you can see that its a transitional period, and is unsustainable, and is in the process of changing. I can help more people alive than I can dead for smuggling a few slaves out.

Re: "Lighten up"

#230

Post by djcapelis »

Tichy wrote: post #154
richardk wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Start wearing sweaters, even though my breasts feel like they're boiling in there (yup, that's one reason women like low tops, guys)?"

I find it hard to believe that low cut dresses are the only possible solution here.

I find it hard to believe that you think women should have to dress differently so as not to attract a running commentary.
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