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Silicon Valley investors (PG included) prefer to invest in young rockstarish startups, so why are we surprised when we see these high profile startups do immature and sexist things? If maturity and manners were important to investors, they would be screening for it. As far as I know, they are not.
Because being young does not mean you have to be immature, and sexism should have nothing do with either immaturity and youth.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're right. That is the healthiest approach for her. Which makes dealing with the bullshit that people fling at her for not having thicker skin all the more valuable. She could go along to get along, but hasn't, so everyone else won't have to go along with this crap too. Your "hopefully that won't come across as sexist" bit, by the way, belittles the concern. It's not just her concern; it's my concern too, and you'…
> You're right. That is the healthiest approach for her. Which makes dealing with the bullshit that people fling at her for not having thicker skin all the more valuable. She could go along to get along, but hasn't, so everyone else won't have to go along with this crap too. Sorry, I'm a little tired today, could you rephrase this so it's easier to tell if you're being sarcastic? (serious question)
The problem is that is also the response with the worst outcome for the field in general.
So, what I'm saying is, she's taking a hit (for instance, by being told to "stop victimizing herself" and to just work harder) in order to stand up against this stuff.
And I'm also saying that as a husband and the father of a little girl who could god-help-me end up in this field, she's standing up for my family too. And so I personally have an issue with belittling her for doing that.
You put a little smiley face after your comment because you thought it was amusing. It's not funny.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
He's actually got a point. She may be victimizing herself and blowing this way out of proportion. There are plenty of guys out there also taking "shit" from co-workers but biting the bullet and rather coming up with a witty response than shutting themselves in.
I think what I am learning from this thread is that this is an "untouchable" subject, in that if you do not naturally side with the person's allegations and white-knight for them, you are part of the problem.
Your proposed solution to sexual harassment or racial harassment or harassment in general was to tell the victim to "grow a thicker skin"
That was what you wanted us to learn from your contributions to the thread.
Thanks. It's pretty clear exactly who has the problem.
Silicon Valley investors (PG included) prefer to invest in young rockstarish startups, so why are we surprised when we see these high profile startups do immature and sexist things? If maturity and manners were important to investors, they would be screening for it. As far as I know, they are not.
Also the awkwardness she's talking about doesn't come only from having a big ego. It's from constantly saying a single asinine statement. The person saying it often doesn't mean for it to have the effect it does.
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Hmmm. If any of her sexist male coworkers made jokes about "kitchen and stuff" in my office, I'd fire them on the spot for cause and take pains to make sure other organizations knew in detail about their behavior. If you accused a victim of sexual harassment of "whining" in my office like you just did here on HN, I'd fire you on the spot and make sure other organizations knew in detail about your behavior. Guess then…
And it also happens to be the correct response.
Hang in there. The norms are always transitioning, so someone is always getting "the shaft" (hopefully that won't come across as sexist :) And unfortunately, when you can't change everyone's "natural" behavior, the next healthiest choice is to grow thicker skin. EDIT>> I'm not saying that it's ok she's treated like this, but you can't change everyones behavior. It takes lifetimes. In the meantime, if you want to have…
Uh, nobody is talking about changing any "natural" behavior (whatever in hell you expect that to mean), no matter how shit-headed. Behave however you like outside the work environment. But if you behave in a sexist or racist way in the work environment you can expect to be gone. Gone. Period. Stop blaming the victim.
First of all, stop putting words in my mouth. This villainization of everyone who doesn't instantly white-knight is insane.
> But if you behave in a sexist or racist way in the work environment you can expect to be gone. Gone. Period.
Great, maybe you should run the company she works at. Or maybe you should put your money where your mouth is and go try to stir up a lawsuit for her. Or you can just posture and puff up your chest in the comments.
First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset.
But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying.
"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"
On a similar note - I have exact same problem with how I perceive woman and man having multiple sexual partners. "Good key opens many locks, but good lock is opened by only one key" and all that bullshit - I know that it's ridiculous to hold woman and men to different standard in this regard, and I mostly learned to don't do that, but my... instinct that was ingrained in me by society tells me otherwise.
I find myself struggling to suppress my subconscious mind in this regard, and frankly, I don't know how I can help it.
Edit for clarity: I don't have problem with such posts being written and upvoted, quite opposite actually, I'm glad they are written and read. I have problem with how posts like this make me feel.
Silicon Valley investors (PG included) prefer to invest in young rockstarish startups, so why are we surprised when we see these high profile startups do immature and sexist things? If maturity and manners were important to investors, they would be screening for it. As far as I know, they are not.
Because being young does not mean you have to be immature, and sexism should have nothing do with either immaturity and youth.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know about you, but I deal with jerks all of the damn time. But luckily no more or less than all of my peers. This would be very different if I was a woman. And we wouldn't reduce male interaction by 50%, we would increase female participation by hundreds of percents. That way if someone is being a jerk, many people can all confirm he's being a jerk.
...I deal with jerks all of the damn time. But luckily no more or less than all of my peers. This would be very different if I was a woman. Indeed. Jerks like this often associate in groups. As a result, women sometimes find themselves in a bizarro social context where their inferiority is just a good joke and the resulting humiliation is considered something like a blow for truth and "good clean fun." That way if so…
I guess the best advice is when you find yourself in a situation like that, get the hell out. But even I as a top notch experienced white male coder can't change jobs at the drop of a hat.
Well said. I'm seriously considering leaving the field of software because I'm tired of working with 25 - 35 year old manchildren.
Wait till you come across the thumpers, we have one, his only saving grace from being shown the door is that he falls into a different category. Still, why would you want someone as a manager who would keep his own wife's car locked up at work because she failed to be properly respectful?
And what do you mean by “his only saving grace from being shown the door is that he falls into a different category”?