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Paul Graham has lost the plot

mishandrob.com

31–40 of 302 posts

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#31
"commercially released music is produced specifically for the purpose of being heard, and paid for (whether by the buyer, or by a royalty from a radio station)"

Remind me again how much radio stations in the US pay in performance royalties?

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#32
At first I wasn't sure if "Defining Property" was one of the most insightful essays I read in a long time, or lazy logic on Paul's part trying to protect the internet in the copyright debate. But I'm pretty sure Paul is talking about something important now.

What he hits on is that there is no scarcity anymore. Media is reproduced and shared freely and instantly, because that is the nature of the internet. The 'pipes' (expensive, physical means of distribution) the recording industry pumped music through for decades have now dissappeared and have been replaced with an open environment. Anything that tries to close that environment is just trying to create artificial scarcity.

It's true that media costs money to produce. And the publishers can still charge for it, if they make the distribution model convenient (or not). But that is still a one time cost which promotes the artist. And let's not act like artists are going to just stop making media if they don't think publishers are going to give them a big payday. They aren't. The more likely scenario is that the distribution will shift to being handled by the artists and that money will be made through concerts and merchandise. Downloaded music will be paid for sometimes, but mostly used for advertisement.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#33
I don't think PG was saying that music equals smells. He's saying piracy = smells, some of them good, some bad.

It's just silly that the industry spent a decade suing people, and probably could have made 10x their money by giving up the 'suing people for smells' and started other music/content related businesses.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#34
post #9

"The distribution might be virtually free, but the production certainly isn’t." Well, all of the music available on iTunes, Amazon, and the Pirate Bay has already been produced, it just needs to be distributed. If I want to pay for music to be produced , I use Kickstarter. (Or go to concerts, since playing a song live could be considered a new production) It's a historical accident that we use charging for distributi…

So in your view the entirety of the 99 cent charge should go to Apple? The song you wanted to download just popped into existence before hand with no time, effort or talent from an artist at all (or discovery by a label)? Please tell me more about this magical music tree.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#35
post #20

Music existed before copyright did. I remain unconvinced that music costs money to produce. Art gets produced for the sake of art, not for compensation. Specific forms of art (say for example big budget movies) may be an exception, but then the argument needs to shift accordingly.

Music existed, but not recording devices, microphones etc. There is a hard cost associated with all of those. Granted, those costs have come down over time, but the rental of a decent studio is not $0.

The cost of studio rental is irrelevant. What musicians want to be compensated for is the lifetime of study, dedication to a craft, years of poverty and uncertainty, risk of repetitive stress injuries, etc.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#36
post #16

There is a difference between a prescriptive argument and descriptive (and I just made these up on the spot). A prescriptive argument admonishes others to do something. So for example he would admonish people to pirate because information is like smells. A descriptive argument describes what the situation is without necessarily telling others what to do. This is the argument that I see pg making. Basically the idea t…

But pg's argument is prescriptive. For example, it includes the question "Should people not be able to charge for content?" and then gives a (conditional) answer.

There's nothing wrong with writing a prescriptive essay; it doesn't make it in any sense weaker. But it is prescriptive, and Rob's argument here is specifically with the prescriptive part of the argument--in other words, he argues that music is not so much like smells that it supports the overall prescription pg is making.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#37

"commercially released music is produced specifically for the purpose of being heard, and paid for (whether by the buyer, or by a royalty from a radio station)" Remind me again how much radio stations in the US pay in performance royalties?

Not sure in the US but I remember hearing around £200 for day-time airplay (more listeners) to £40 at late-night is what an artist can expect to earn from a play on the BBC.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#38
PG's analogy is only flawed in that it's meant to be prescriptive and not fundamental, so it admits arguments like this. Producing content costs money, yes. But once it's been released to the public, it's impossible to restrict copying. Cold hard fact, move on. Sorry if it's not the way you'd like - you can take your ball and go home, but you can't go back in time.

All the interest and investment in new distribution services is basically looking to be part of RIAA 2.0 - continuing profitable distribution channels based on consumer laziness. The goal of the record industry has never been to compensate artists, and the decreasing prevalence of big-name acts means there's even fewer lucky ones with the power to demand so. Meanwhile, the pirate side has accepted that distribution is free and is trying to usher in the future so sustainable artist-beneficial (whatever that turns out to mean) structures can be created. Oink was responsible for my going to many shows, while the risk of being hassled over torrenting (I've become more risk-adverse) has resulted in me knowing very few bands on the concert listings.

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#39

I'll just cherry pick this gem here: "What would happen if creators couldn’t charge for their creations? The same as if you couldn’t charge for lines of computer code: there’d be less of it." Spotted the massive, gaping flaw in the argument yet? It's 2012, if you make this argument then I am done with you. Linux is how old? How much of the internet runs on it? Done. Edit: Wow, really? Why is this still a necessary ar…

Where would Linux be without Windows and Mac OS X to borrow ideas from?

Re: Paul Graham has lost the plot

#40
post #11

It bugs me that we haven't moved past "What would happen if creators couldn’t charge for their creations" in these discussions. It's an extreme strawman. No one -- not Graham, not Richard Stallman, not Julian Assange -- is interested in making it impossible to make money from creating stuff. Copyright is simply one means of accomplishing the end goal of paying creators, and certainly not the only one. I'd like to hea…

It bothers me as well. Perhaps OP should change his question to "What would happen if creators couldn't police the area outside of the music festival to make sure that nobody benefits from the sound that happens to escape the fences?"
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