Cesium-soaked truffles may keep fallout in an environment’s food web • Hacker News Board

Re: Cesium-soaked truffles may keep fallout in an environment’s food web

#41

Post by Incipient » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 1:33 AM UTC

alexey-salmin wrote: post #38

pgeorgi wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The source for Germany's CO2 emissions is a pro-coal-miner stance, not an anti-nuclear position: Germany happily threw away a 120k workers strong photovoltaics industry while protecting a 40k workers strong coal mining industry. The anti-nuclear position comes from radioactive boars and even more-so from the fuck up that is the Jülich experimental reactor, a "safe by design" system that by now took 40 years of mainte…

> Politics and industry have demonstrated that they can't ensure safe nuclear operation in Germany. USSR (1986) and Japan (2011) just drove the point home that it's not a specific German failing. Politics and industry have repeatedly demonstrated that nuclear power generation is one of safest industries in the history of humanity. One terawatt-hour of nuclear causes on average one premature death in 33 years, even sa…

In the same way I wouldn't feel entirely safe driving around in a car from the 60s, nuclear reactor design has come a long way since then.

And considering how absolutely ancient the Japanese reactors are, they came incredibly close to not failing. Anything modern simply wouldn't have.

Re: Cesium-soaked truffles may keep fallout in an environment’s food web

#42

Post by seanhunter » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 5:12 AM UTC

klyrs wrote: post #40

seanhunter wrote: post #7

I surely can't be the only one who hears "radioactive boar" and thinks "superhero origin story".

The adventures of Captain Boaring, whose superpower is the ability to smell mushrooms? I'll pass.

He may not be the most interesting superhero, but he is amoung the most bristly. Don't knock it until you see the artwork!

Also I hear there is an "Asterix" crossover coming, although Captain Boaring only gets a small part.

Re: Cesium-soaked truffles may keep fallout in an environment’s food web

#43

Post by pgeorgi » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 6:06 AM UTC

alexey-salmin wrote: post #38

pgeorgi wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The source for Germany's CO2 emissions is a pro-coal-miner stance, not an anti-nuclear position: Germany happily threw away a 120k workers strong photovoltaics industry while protecting a 40k workers strong coal mining industry. The anti-nuclear position comes from radioactive boars and even more-so from the fuck up that is the Jülich experimental reactor, a "safe by design" system that by now took 40 years of mainte…

> Politics and industry have demonstrated that they can't ensure safe nuclear operation in Germany. USSR (1986) and Japan (2011) just drove the point home that it's not a specific German failing. Politics and industry have repeatedly demonstrated that nuclear power generation is one of safest industries in the history of humanity. One terawatt-hour of nuclear causes on average one premature death in 33 years, even sa…

The issue isn't as much as the realized damage, it's the way it's been handled. Ask the people in charge at the time and Jülich never had any issue: it's deny, deflect, deter all the way.

So we're dealing with an industry that cuts corners whenever it feels like it, and received unlimited backing of politics by sweeping incidents under the nearest rug, and trampling over communities at will (see how the Wentland region was chosen to become a permanent storage site for nuclear waste).

In such an environment at some point any statistics are meaningless, even harmful: they drive home the point that in face of the nuclear industry and its political handling, the people are just a statistic. Why should the people put up with that?

Nuclear power in Germany wasn't a technical failing (for the most part), it was politics colluding with the industry in a way that evaporated any trust.

Nuclear technology is highly regulated for good reason (enriched uranium 235 isn't simply available "over the counter", for example), which increases the amount of trust required. It wasn't any particular incident that killed nuclear power in Germany, it was the inability to act responsibly.

Re: Cesium-soaked truffles may keep fallout in an environment’s food web

#44

Post by pgeorgi » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 6:33 AM UTC

Incipient wrote: post #41

alexey-salmin wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Politics and industry have demonstrated that they can't ensure safe nuclear operation in Germany. USSR (1986) and Japan (2011) just drove the point home that it's not a specific German failing. Politics and industry have repeatedly demonstrated that nuclear power generation is one of safest industries in the history of humanity. One terawatt-hour of nuclear causes on average one premature death in 33 years, even sa…

In the same way I wouldn't feel entirely safe driving around in a car from the 60s, nuclear reactor design has come a long way since then. And considering how absolutely ancient the Japanese reactors are, they came incredibly close to not failing. Anything modern simply wouldn't have.

> Anything modern simply wouldn't have.

That was the claim for the technology they developed at Jülich, too. And it does look good on paper.

Seriously, as long as you try to argue on technical merit, you're missing the point of the debate on nuclear power in Germany. It all came down to having to trust people who have demonstrated that they're not at all trustworthy.

Re: Cesium-soaked truffles may keep fallout in an environment’s food web

#45

Post by alexey-salmin » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 7:11 AM UTC

pgeorgi wrote: post #43

alexey-salmin wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Politics and industry have demonstrated that they can't ensure safe nuclear operation in Germany. USSR (1986) and Japan (2011) just drove the point home that it's not a specific German failing. Politics and industry have repeatedly demonstrated that nuclear power generation is one of safest industries in the history of humanity. One terawatt-hour of nuclear causes on average one premature death in 33 years, even sa…

The issue isn't as much as the realized damage, it's the way it's been handled. Ask the people in charge at the time and Jülich never had any issue: it's deny, deflect, deter all the way. So we're dealing with an industry that cuts corners whenever it feels like it, and received unlimited backing of politics by sweeping incidents under the nearest rug, and trampling over communities at will (see how the Wentland regi…

That is true, but it also plagues all other energy-generating industries (both green and fossil), and in general I'd say virtually all industries. Incidents are denied and swept under the rug, environment and health effects are severely underestimated, both politicians and business are corrupt and alike. Humans are flawed and we have no others.

And then, the fact remains that air pollution kills millions of people every year and nuclear plants do not. "Acting responsible" in this circumstances means more nuclear.

Re: Cesium-soaked truffles may keep fallout in an environment’s food web

#46

Post by pgeorgi » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 7:37 AM UTC

alexey-salmin wrote: post #45

pgeorgi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't as much as the realized damage, it's the way it's been handled. Ask the people in charge at the time and Jülich never had any issue: it's deny, deflect, deter all the way. So we're dealing with an industry that cuts corners whenever it feels like it, and received unlimited backing of politics by sweeping incidents under the nearest rug, and trampling over communities at will (see how the Wentland regi…

That is true, but it also plagues all other energy-generating industries (both green and fossil), and in general I'd say virtually all industries. Incidents are denied and swept under the rug, environment and health effects are severely underestimated, both politicians and business are corrupt and alike. Humans are flawed and we have no others. And then, the fact remains that air pollution kills millions of people ev…

Green energy industries were hampered (or outright killed, like German photovoltaics, just 10 years ago), so I wouldn't say they're all alike.

Re: Cesium-soaked truffles may keep fallout in an environment’s food web

#47

Post by pgeorgi » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 5:55 PM UTC

z_ack wrote: post #32

I'm wondering why there is no measurement, no data about the radiation detected. All in our environment is a little bit radioactive, it's called background radiation : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation#:~:text=B... . A scientific article without any reference to measurements or at least a comparison with background radiation is criticisable. I'll say the obvious but, it the legal limit is near to the…

> Anyway, what about the truffles and other mushrooms of that region ? For logic deduction, they should be unsafe, too.

They are: https://www.bfs.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/BfS/DE/2023...

Re: Cesium-soaked truffles may keep fallout in an environment’s food web

#48

Post by dredmorbius » Sun, Sep 03, 2023, 7:34 PM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #20

tcfhgj wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so instead of eating them we pump it into the atmosphere? :(

If we were to eat them, surely some amount might end up as soil, but digestion and respiration means that a fair amount of the pig ends up being pumped into the atmosphere from our lungs. You can think metabolism as a sort of intricately complex burning ritual.

Respiration is based on metabolism and the overwhelmingly prominent elements in human exhalation (exclusive of preexisting atmospheric components) are carbon (as CO2) and hydrogen (as H2O), neither of which are likely radioisotopic components of contaminated food.

Cesium would be excreted as solid waste, winding up in water treatment plant sludge.

For combusted carcasses, absent particulates (which could be largely trapped via scubbers), that would likely wind up principally as ash.

Re: Cesium-soaked truffles may keep fallout in an environment’s food web

#49

Post by epistasis » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 5:56 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #48

epistasis wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we were to eat them, surely some amount might end up as soil, but digestion and respiration means that a fair amount of the pig ends up being pumped into the atmosphere from our lungs. You can think metabolism as a sort of intricately complex burning ritual.

Respiration is based on metabolism and the overwhelmingly prominent elements in human exhalation (exclusive of preexisting atmospheric components) are carbon (as CO2) and hydrogen (as H2O), neither of which are likely radioisotopic components of contaminated food. Cesium would be excreted as solid waste, winding up in water treatment plant sludge. For combusted carcasses, absent particulates (which could be largely t…

I was thinking that the complaint was primarily about the CO2, but your comment makes me realize that they could have been concerned about the radiation aspects in the air too...

Re: Cesium-soaked truffles may keep fallout in an environment’s food web

#50

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 10:24 PM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #49

dredmorbius wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respiration is based on metabolism and the overwhelmingly prominent elements in human exhalation (exclusive of preexisting atmospheric components) are carbon (as CO2) and hydrogen (as H2O), neither of which are likely radioisotopic components of contaminated food. Cesium would be excreted as solid waste, winding up in water treatment plant sludge. For combusted carcasses, absent particulates (which could be largely t…

I was thinking that the complaint was primarily about the CO2, but your comment makes me realize that they could have been concerned about the radiation aspects in the air too...

Radioactive boar flesh, as with all other biomass, is already in the biosphere, that is, it is not fossilised carbon being reintroduced. Contributions to increased greenhouse gasses would effectively be net zero.

(Note that non-combusted boars are already expelling CO2 through respiration, as well as more potent gases such as methane through metabolism and decomposition of solid wastes. Methane production through human livestock is among the concerns of climate forcing, though I suspect wild boar populations are sufficiently small to not have a significant impact.)