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Police Seized Innocent Peoples Property, Kept It for Years. What Will SCOTUS Do?

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151–160 of 179 posts

Re: Police Seized Innocent Peoples Property, Kept It for Years. What Will SCOTUS Do?

#151
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the classic "aha, if you're really so oppressed, why don't you take productive action about it (in a society where all avenues of productive action have been foreclosed)" to you strategy kinda like asking a black man what he thinks should be done about jim crow, if he's so smart. the tactic really does go way back like yea oppressive power structures systematically foreclose, neuter, and dismantle any means that migh…

Okay, let me rephrase. What should I be doing other than voting and working for causes I believe in. I’m not in an oppressed group unless you consider the entirety of the American public not part of the oligarchy to be such a group.

Bro really thinks every white person got their own personal "end jim crow button" too and everyone just uniformly refused to press it I guess lol

again, commoners of any form (let alone one single commoner working alone) are not going to be able to just do one simple trick and upend an oppressive power structure, it's a better place than being in the fuckbarrel but the point is oppressive power structures don't leave anyone a recourse, if your title doesn't begin with "senator" it doesn't really matter what you think or do.

there is of course one option, the last of the boxes. but if you aren't willing to fight for what you believe in then, yeah, you're effectively consenting to the society you are offered by political elites. consent can still be withdrawn, but in an oppressive power structure that's usually going to be a violent process.

like I am just telling you outright: soapbox, ballot box, and jury box are all effectively powerless to overturn the problems in american society, by design (that's why it's oppressive). and you can either live with that, and the society thus pressed upon you warts and all, or not. some random march for george floyd or voting blue every election is not going to fix america. keyboard warriorism (including this comment) certainly is not going to do it either.

nobody actually walks away from omelas - and omelas news network thinks you're crazy for even suggesting there could be anything better. We all - you and me and every other law-abiding, taxpaying citizen - accept this society knowing that it exists on the back of the largest slave/gulag population on the planet, and an arbitrary and capricious (and usually politicized) "justice" system that could randomly condemn any of us to that slavery and a permanent mark of underclass. We all accept the idea that our attempts at reforms will not do more than trivial and meaningless amounts of good through our lifetimes. And yet we stay and participate.

https://shsdavisapes.pbworks.com/f/Omelas.pdf

You're not helping. Why is that, Leon? Why do you consent?

(I consent to omelas too, I just want you to consciously make your own decision in full knowledge of the consequences and responsibility of your actions. Every day you wake up and go about your life, you do it on the backs of the police state and the carceral state/gulag archipelago it has imposed upon us, and even rattling the bars of your cage a bit by voting or activism will not change this.)

Re: Police Seized Innocent Peoples Property, Kept It for Years. What Will SCOTUS Do?

#152
post #2

Severely limiting the scope of civil forfeiture seems like one of those political issues that everyone across the political spectrum can agree on. I'm constantly hearing horror stories like the ones in this article and I've never heard any reasonable defense of our current system. In fact, I've never even heard an unreasonable defense.

There really isn’t any reasonable defense for these examples or the lack of the speedy hearing. But I’m not against civil forfeiture if practiced better with better safe guards. Every year the government takes 30%+ of the money I make via taxation. Unelected administrative functionaries lay down laws that can massively change the value of your property. I’m not going to cry if the government keeps money whose origin…

There's absolutely no reason to have civil forfeiture when criminal forfeiture exists. If you think money is the product of a crime, seize it, and charge the person with a crime. If you can't prove the crime then the money gets returned.

Re: Police Seized Innocent Peoples Property, Kept It for Years. What Will SCOTUS Do?

#153
post #84
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reasons communism allows seizure of property are with good intentions, just as the reasons the law allows the seizure of property in this case are because of good intentions. How it's used and abused in practice in both systems is the important part. I'm not sure either system necessarily has a great track record in that respect.

Sorry, but the intentions behind these seizures are in no way benign. Maybe in the original intentions of the law , but the police are there to shake people down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJd4Q4u5cqU Reminder: this is yet another piece of evidence that The War on Drugs™ does not serve us well in any way, shape, or form.

> Maybe in the original intentions of the law

Yes, that is exactly what I said. I'm not sure how to read it otherwise. If you're going to assess how it works under communism by looking at why the government allows and and what their goal is, it only makes sense to assess other systems the same way, which is why I said "the reasons the law allows..."

Re: Police Seized Innocent Peoples Property, Kept It for Years. What Will SCOTUS Do?

#154
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private property != personal property Means of production is not the same as the shoes on your feet. It's just unfortunately confusing terminology that leads to twisted argumentation. Btw, the alternative to capitalist liberal states is not exclusively authoritarian marxist-leninist communism. Not all anti-capitalists are pining for another different boot to lick.

A tool (boot, glove, knife, hammer, etc) is easily both the means of production and personal property. The distinction is in effect meaningless.

A hammer isn’t a factory. There is a distinction, unless you don’t think industrialization had any effect on society.

Re: Police Seized Innocent Peoples Property, Kept It for Years. What Will SCOTUS Do?

#155
If Elon Musk or someone else with boatloads of money wants to help society, they should take this on. Go to a city that is notorious for this, hire an army of lawyers and take every case to court. If it takes $10000 in legal fees to get back a car worth $5000, ::shrug:: Do it over and over and make it not worth it, and hopefully get this stopped.

Re: Police Seized Innocent Peoples Property, Kept It for Years. What Will SCOTUS Do?

#156
post #136

Yes yes.. And yet many many young people in US are against second amendment. I wonder how they will be able to defend they property from criminals and goverment (police) without all those guns. Unless they want live "easy" life (as someone famous said): Do not own anything, so you will have no problems.

Shooting at police when they attempt to take your money is not a viable solution to this problem at all, much less such a first-line solution that it's a contradiction to also advocate gun control. It is already obvious that the government has a monopoly on violence. The entire structure of democracy is geared around spreading around that power to check it, and prevent any one actor from having greater access to it. The only viable solution is to reinforce those checks on power and remove the reins from bad actors trying to consolidate and strengthen their own access to the power.

Re: Police Seized Innocent Peoples Property, Kept It for Years. What Will SCOTUS Do?

#157
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, let me rephrase. What should I be doing other than voting and working for causes I believe in. I’m not in an oppressed group unless you consider the entirety of the American public not part of the oligarchy to be such a group.

Bro really thinks every white person got their own personal "end jim crow button" too and everyone just uniformly refused to press it I guess lol again, commoners of any form (let alone one single commoner working alone ) are not going to be able to just do one simple trick and upend an oppressive power structure, it's a better place than being in the fuckbarrel but the point is oppressive power structures don't leav…

[deleted]

Re: Police Seized Innocent Peoples Property, Kept It for Years. What Will SCOTUS Do?

#158
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://archive.li/fhkvp

(Did anyone ever solve the captcha loop issue with archive.*?)

I was caught in this loop on a WeWork wifi connection, but it went away as soon as I switched to my VPN.

Re: Police Seized Innocent Peoples Property, Kept It for Years. What Will SCOTUS Do?

#159
post #44

This can be fixed simply: require police and the federal government to cover legal fees when successfully recovering stolen property, require them to additionally pay penalties to the victims that match the late payment penalties for fines and taxes. Finally, require all the, ahem, proceeds of this theft to be set aside for paying the above. That removes the profit motive and adds substantial downside to bogus theft.

Counterpoint: That would just mean taxpayers would pay more for police gross negligence (which is already a problem).

Tax payers already pay for police incompetence and malice, but at least now they wouldn't be able to steal property and then use that to pay for new toys, overtime, bonuses, etc and would have to operate inside their actual budget (rather than using theft to supplement their income).

Obviously making police overtime and bonus pools be the source of funds for lawsuit payouts might improve things - the unwillingness of police to actually report illegal behaviour by their coworkers might be reduced when that behaviour lowers their income.

Re: Police Seized Innocent Peoples Property, Kept It for Years. What Will SCOTUS Do?

#160
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the classic "aha, if you're really so oppressed, why don't you take productive action about it (in a society where all avenues of productive action have been foreclosed)" to you strategy kinda like asking a black man what he thinks should be done about jim crow, if he's so smart. the tactic really does go way back like yea oppressive power structures systematically foreclose, neuter, and dismantle any means that migh…

Okay, let me rephrase. What should I be doing other than voting and working for causes I believe in. I’m not in an oppressed group unless you consider the entirety of the American public not part of the oligarchy to be such a group.

Or to put this in a little less dramatic way - what do you do when the leadership (C-suite, board, and middle managers) are running a company into the ground, abusing the employees, and won't listen to reason? You leave. You're not going to be able to do anything - the real world isn't a RPG where there is always a "good outcome" if you do the right thing. Sometimes all the options lead to bad outcomes.

Well, this is a situation where most people cannot really "just leave". And in fact the US expends considerable resources to make life difficult for those who attempt it.

This will not change unless until and until elites' own interests align in reforming it. And elites are pretty good at making it illegal to make their lives uncomfortable or apply pressure on them in meaningful ways.

It is possible for societies to become so stratified that this change is not possible without violence. Classically, dictatorships, but I don't think that is the only way to get there.

America is in that place, because our society is so geographically isolated and so resource-blessed that a traditional collapse is not possible. There is no neighboring country that is going to topple us if we allow our system to become stagnant and calcified. Any realistic attack would have to cross an ocean or a rainforest/jungle to do it.

So we will continue bumbling along, boiling the frog and allowing our society to become worse and worse, because the US cannot collapse and cannot reform. And there really is nothing that you, as a single voter, could possibly do about it.

Even a million man march cannot do anything about it - easier to just assassinate the commoner's leader and move on with some token reforms to shut people up. The system doesn't mind using (extralegal!) violence on you, that stigma is for commoners not elites.

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