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An algorithm that blew up Italy’s school system

algorithmwatch.org

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Re: An algorithm that blew up Italy’s school system

#21

Post by bezout »

lordnacho wrote: post #20
b800h wrote: post #13

What is infuriating about this is that this should be a solved optimisation problem, but it has probably been outsourced on the cheap to some bog-standard web dev team who have tried to figure it out from first principles. It's a bit like trying to roll your own security.

What I don't get is why it would be outsourced at all. Run a team that manages the entire SDLC. If they mess it up, they are maintaining it and have a reason to solve the problem. How did people manage to convince government that software is this one-time thing you just pay for and then it works forever?

To be fair some nations do have their software development teams. Italy has Sogei which is fully controlled by the Ministry of Economics. They had a reputation for developing crappy software but I heard they are getting better

PS: they were not involved in the development of this algorithm

Re: An algorithm that blew up Italy’s school system

#22

Post by b800h »

lordnacho wrote: post #20
b800h wrote: post #13

What is infuriating about this is that this should be a solved optimisation problem, but it has probably been outsourced on the cheap to some bog-standard web dev team who have tried to figure it out from first principles. It's a bit like trying to roll your own security.

What I don't get is why it would be outsourced at all. Run a team that manages the entire SDLC. If they mess it up, they are maintaining it and have a reason to solve the problem. How did people manage to convince government that software is this one-time thing you just pay for and then it works forever?

It's a lot easier to clear capital expenditure than revenue expense.

Re: An algorithm that blew up Italy’s school system

#23

Post by sam_lowry_ »

bezout wrote: post #21
lordnacho wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't get is why it would be outsourced at all. Run a team that manages the entire SDLC. If they mess it up, they are maintaining it and have a reason to solve the problem. How did people manage to convince government that software is this one-time thing you just pay for and then it works forever?

To be fair some nations do have their software development teams. Italy has Sogei which is fully controlled by the Ministry of Economics. They had a reputation for developing crappy software but I heard they are getting better PS: they were not involved in the development of this algorithm

Smals to Belgium is pretty much what Sogei is to Italy. A government-controlled IT sweatshop.

Re: An algorithm that blew up Italy’s school system

#24

Post by layer8 »

bezout wrote: post #18

The way it works in Italy: the design and implementation of the algorithm in Java 8 or an even older version of C# was probably outsourced to one of the Big 4 consultancy companies. A group of underpaid graduates was put together to crack the problem. All of them crammed for their algo & ds exam since that’s what the Italian university system incentivises so none of them did actually remember a thing about algorithm…

I don’t see what “Java 8 or an even older version of C#” has to to with the correctness of the algorithm or its implementation.

Re: An algorithm that blew up Italy’s school system

#25

Post by bezout »

layer8 wrote: post #24
bezout wrote: post #18

The way it works in Italy: the design and implementation of the algorithm in Java 8 or an even older version of C# was probably outsourced to one of the Big 4 consultancy companies. A group of underpaid graduates was put together to crack the problem. All of them crammed for their algo & ds exam since that’s what the Italian university system incentivises so none of them did actually remember a thing about algorithm…

I don’t see what “Java 8 or an even older version of C#” has to to with the correctness of the algorithm or its implementation.

It doesn’t. It’s not an attack on the programming languages. It’s just that they have a sweet spot for using old ass versions which might or might not have known vulnerabilities and they don’t care about updating it.

Re: An algorithm that blew up Italy’s school system

#26

Post by layer8 »

bezout wrote: post #25
layer8 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see what “Java 8 or an even older version of C#” has to to with the correctness of the algorithm or its implementation.

It doesn’t. It’s not an attack on the programming languages. It’s just that they have a sweet spot for using old ass versions which might or might not have known vulnerabilities and they don’t care about updating it.

FYI, OpenJDK 8 still receives regular security updates and will continue to do so for at least three more years (Temurin, RedHat) (or, according to Oracle, until end of 2030). It’s still in production in a lot of places.

Re: An algorithm that blew up Italy’s school system

#27

Post by gopher_space »

morkalork wrote: post #8
st-keller wrote: post #3

Why do i read such stories at all? Now i can‘t tell, if it’s the algorithm or the implementation or both and i’m left with more questions than before! Edit: typo

It could serve as a parable you'd tell a junior engineer interested writing algorithms that get applied to people's livelihood. Beware your own hubris, demonstrate or simulate results and show them to all stakeholders like the union, do controlled rollouts (why not start with 1 region in the country?), verify inputs that could be untrustworthy. Basically all the usual lessons one learns the first time they write an a…

But leetcode hiring implies we're looking for juniors to roll their own algos and call them recursively as part of the job. People hired this way could be walking time-bombs.

Re: An algorithm that blew up Italy’s school system

#29

Post by SenAnder »

mavamaarten wrote: post #9
game_the0ry wrote: post #2

Recently, Kentucky had similar problems with algos and tech, but with bus routes. [1] And here I was thinking it was just an American problem. Infuriating that children and education are being used as cash cows for the corrupt and incompetent - promise efficiency for the kids and system, deliver absolute shit for everyone, except the execs who got paid. Fucking evil. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37121138

You see it everywhere indeed. Where I live, schools are starting to force everyone to buy or rent specific laptops from specific companies. The less financially-abled can't buy a good second hand laptop for cheap, the ones who can pay for them are scammed by high prices and shitty hardware. The company running the show is happy though, of course.

Find the individuals who signed that contract, organize parent protests at their private homes.

Re: An algorithm that blew up Italy’s school system

#30

Post by mistrial9 »

basseq wrote: post #16
jaclaz wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seemingly it is implementation: >Why did such errors occur? >When the algorithm finds an ideal candidate for a position, it does not reset the list of remaining candidates before commencing the search to fill the next vacancy. Thus, those candidates who missed out on the first role that matched their preferences are definitively discarded from the pool of available teachers, with no possibility of employment. The alg…

That "drop out" concept just seems entirely wrong. Not only because its erroneously constricting the applicant pool, but because it strongly biases the earlier roles in the queue. For example, consider two roles and two applicants, with fit scores as below: Role 1 Role 2 ----- ----- ----- Applicant A 96% 95% Applicant B 95% 50% Ignoring the "drop out" bug, under the algorithm described the system would evaluate all c…

at first glance the algorithm seems to reward compliance ("take whatever is offered") and severely penalize any teacher who insists on some placement (by refusing the first placement you are knocked out of the applicants, maybe for a long time)
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