Which is completely unsurprising since ROS (Reactive Oxygen Species) are used by organisms to kill cancer cells, bacteria and other foreign stuff in the body.
P.S. I am neither a doctor nor a biologist.
Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow
51–60 of 69 posts
Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow
#52Does this mean that people undergoing chemo shouldn't have any supplements at all? Lutein, for example, is a strong antioxidant but also has anti-cancer properties. Edit: thanks for the replies!
I was advised not to take supplements or antioxidants during chemo. "The healthier you are, then so too is your cancer." was something that threw me off a bit. Edit: just to be clear, at the point in which you already have cancer, the most important treatment is the science of chemotherapy. Antioxidants can in turn “strengthen” tumor cells (just as they do regular cells) and cause chemo resistance/refractory.
>> "The healthier you are, then so too is your cancer." was something that threw me off a bit.
There is debate to this. I've spoken with oncologists that say that you need your organs to survive the chemo process, so you should be taking care of yourself and eating a normal diet.
Another reason oncologists don't want supplements involved is that it can interfere with the chemo absorption. Sometimes it can enhance the chemo. It really depends on the chemo and the supplements.
Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow
#53> Common antioxidants, such as vitamins A, C, selenium, and zinc, can stimulate the growth of blood vessels in cancer when taken in excess. Is this to say that once you have cancer, these are bad, or that they promote the possibility of getting cancer. The second part is because we are continuously getting cancerous cells, but for the most part our immune system can deal with them before they become a problem.
Vitamin C is hailed for contributing to immune system defense. So maybe having the right amount is best?
That or pre-cancer diagnosis you rely heavily on vitamin C, and post-cancer diagnosis you withdraw heavily from vitamin C?
Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow
#54There is so much debate to this, I consider this article clickbait.
Consider this clinical trial that suggests the exact opposite:
>> High Doses of Vitamin C with Chemotherapy and Radiation Therapy in Treating Patients with Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/clinical-trial...
Other studies:
>> Targeting cancer vulnerabilities with high-dose vitamin C
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526932/
Other studies of uses of supplements:
>> Taken together, these results suggest that combinational chemotherapy with ascorbic acid and paclitaxel not only does not block the anticancer effects of paclitaxel but also alleviates the cytotoxicity of paclitaxel in vivo and in vitro.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23176798
Overall, talk to your oncologist before combining any supplements with your chemotherapy.
Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow
#55There is so much debate to this, I consider this article clickbait. Consider this clinical trial that suggests the exact opposite: >> High Doses of Vitamin C with Chemotherapy and Radiation Therapy in Treating Patients with Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/clinical-trial... Other studies: >> Targeting cancer vulnerabilities with high-dose vitamin C https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/…
All situational. But I'm sure Pauling is laughing in his grave.
See https://www.cancer.gov/research/key-initiatives/ras/ras-cent... and specifically Mark Levine's pioneering work https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15068981/ which adds to this debate.
Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow
#56This is not new at all.
Nick Lane writes very specifically about this in “power, sex, suicide”.
Specifically, ingested antioxidants have no pathway to enter the cell where we believe antioxidants would be helpful… And even if they could they would almost certainly hurt us by interfering with essential cell signaling mechanisms.
Bad cells need to die. You should not get in the way of this process. In fact, you should probably encourage it.
The experimental basis for this dates to the early 80s.
Yes, that means the entire antioxidant edifice has been bullshit the entire time.
Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would it not be more accurate to say, “they must be avoided in vitamin supplement form ”?
In general, supplements should not be taken without good reason, because their availability in concentrated form makes it very easy to consume too much, like is also the case for refined sugar. Consuming too much of anything that is useful in small quantities, is either useless or harmful. When restricted to the same small quantities that are normally available from natural sources, there are no significant differenc…
This - the overconsumption of supplements can lead to problems. The problem isn't so much with a daily multivitamin as it is with megadoses of a bunch of different vitamins. I know it's only anecdotal, but I had a cousin that really got into one of those vitamin selling pyramid schemes. She got to the point she was taking dozens of different supplements every day and was one of the top sellers. She got cancer and died while only in her 30's. This has been decades ago and I don't remember which cancer she had, but I do remember friends and family wondering if taking all those supplements was a factor? Subsequent research suggests perhaps so. Like I said, she was mega dosing - she wasn't just taking a daily multivitamin.
Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was advised not to take supplements or antioxidants during chemo. "The healthier you are, then so too is your cancer." was something that threw me off a bit. Edit: just to be clear, at the point in which you already have cancer, the most important treatment is the science of chemotherapy. Antioxidants can in turn “strengthen” tumor cells (just as they do regular cells) and cause chemo resistance/refractory.
Sounds like a mythical riddle. "To survive, you must go knock on the doors of death."
Chemotherapy is deadly. The idea is to administer enough to kill the cancer but not kill the patient. It's literally a well-regulated and well-monitored poison.
Don't get the wrong idea - chemotherapies are among the best therapies we have for treating cancer. I'm not anti-Western medicine or anti-chemotherapy or anything like that, it's just we have to recognize the nature of the beast and what it is exactly that we're doing when administering it.
Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow
#59Does this mean that people undergoing chemo shouldn't have any supplements at all? Lutein, for example, is a strong antioxidant but also has anti-cancer properties. Edit: thanks for the replies!
In literally 3 hours, I'm about to start my first iv chemo session (18 weeks total). And yes I was instructed to not take any supplements, especially naturopathic stuff but even including common multivitamins.
Not sure why you were getting downvoted - I'm of the age where I've had several friends and acquaintances deal with cancer and have had to have chemotherapy. In most cases they were instructed to not take any supplements. They especially don't want you taking naturopathic stuff because that's so poorly regulated and they really have no idea what it is you were actually taking and how it might affect your therapy. My understanding is this is pretty much standard operating procedure.
Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
The paper says nothing about promoting the possibility of getting cancer. Only after the cancer is advanced enough that the cancerous cells have formed a tumor, according to this study the antioxidants promote the growth of the blood vessels of the tumor, which is very undesirable, because the better vascularized a tumor is, the faster it grows. When there is no cancer, promoting the growth of the blood vessels is a…
In the article they clearly state that this applies for those with elevated risk. Those without cancer. Seems to make sense. If a tumor starts growing you won't know it. Meanwhile the antioxidants are helping it.
Like many decisions in nutrition, any choice has both advantages and disadvantages.
Judging from the results of this paper, avoiding antioxidants may decrease your risk of death because some undetected cancer has grown faster before being discovered, but it may increase your risk of death due to some cardiovascular disease.