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We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

blog.sqoot.com

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Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pfft... like I said "What is this 'Women:' bit about?" I didn't realise that they had listed women explicity as a perk. I just thought it was a bad bit of copy. I didn't see their original site and as it has now been taken down. I thought they had listed it in a less obvious way noting the servers would be women to bait males to attend. Perhaps this is a bit more than a kerfuffle then. While what they wrote turned ou…

Are you serious? "Generate some copy?" Copy doesn't just appear out of nowhere. Someone wrote that, and meant to write that, you're kidding yourself if you think they didn't.

I have no idea what you are on about to be honest.

Surely in this context generate == produce. I don't really get how you could take what I wrote as 'these guys made content "magically appear" in their event description'.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#52

People need to fucking lighten up. I would not have said what they said on the site, but it really was a stupid joke. Everyone jumps to conclusions that we're all a bunch of misogynistic assholes. The problem is, you can't understand someone over the internet. You can't understand someone's apology or who they are or any of that. Worse, the majority of these people calling this issue out online would NEVER confront s…

I'm sure on many counts you are absolutely right.

However there is a HUGE difference between what I say in person and what I put in a a public invitation.

In isolation its "just a harmless JOKE" but it is not in isolation in the tech scene. There is a long list of this behavior that makes this industry uninviting (and in some rarer cases just damn hostile) to women.

I think in Startup culture we appreciate that its all in the nuance and little details when it comes to success.

Small things like this add up. I'd argue that it is in dealing with matter incidents like this that we make a larger change in the long run.

As for "Everyone needs to relax"... I have two daughters. When I don't have to read about people like Sqoot then I'll relax.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#53

I'm obviously the minority here but I feel that this backlash is way over the top. Sure, the comment was sort of stupid and shouldn't be a part of any official communication from a company (although part of what I love about startups is that the communication is more human and doesn't feel like it's been screened by legal and marketing before published). To me, it pokes more fun at geeks than anyone else. "A real wom…

Even if it did mock geeks, how does that excuse the dehumanization of women? Just because you're saying shitty things about everyone doesn't mean it's okay that you're saying shitty things.

This is how I see it: claiming that A can "dehumanize" B implies that A is over B somehow.

I find your statement and the like elsewhere in this discussion ("Women are not a perk!" etc.) more demeaning and patronizing that the original line. Women are not weak souls who need protection from evil sexist geeks.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#54

People need to fucking lighten up. I would not have said what they said on the site, but it really was a stupid joke. Everyone jumps to conclusions that we're all a bunch of misogynistic assholes. The problem is, you can't understand someone over the internet. You can't understand someone's apology or who they are or any of that. Worse, the majority of these people calling this issue out online would NEVER confront s…

> People need to fucking lighten up.

>But then there are other things, like the stuff Sqoot said on their event page. Psh, just a harmless JOKE. Pick your battles people.

I have a lot of problems with your rant, but I wanted to respond to these in particular.

When I saw their flyer, it didn't read as a joke. It read as “One good reason to attend this event is that there will be women there who we're paying to serve you beer.” I guess I might have missed something, but this sounds like it was something they planned to do. So, not a joke.

What does this tell me? The target audience for this event is men. Of course others can come, but really it caters to men.

Why is that a problem? Because the development community has historically been dominated by men, and has various cultural elements that are not very welcoming toward women. So then to put on a prominent hackathon, and explicitly say “Hey, and really this for the men out there” is a problem for me.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it did mock geeks, how does that excuse the dehumanization of women? Just because you're saying shitty things about everyone doesn't mean it's okay that you're saying shitty things.

This is how I see it: claiming that A can "dehumanize" B implies that A is over B somehow. I find your statement and the like elsewhere in this discussion ("Women are not a perk!" etc.) more demeaning and patronizing that the original line. Women are not weak souls who need protection from evil sexist geeks.

/me grins.

You're backing yourself into a corner rhetorically here.

I'm not (just) white knighting here to defend all the poor helpless ladies. I am actually offended and disheartened by the comments. The things that Sqoot said makes me not want to be part of the community they belong to.

Secondly, the ladies have been more than capable of communicating that they felt this was demeaning. This isn't smoke without fire.

Here's the thing. Sqoot are obviously dumb kids, because the ad for the event was clearly written in dumb-kid-speak. I have hope that they do grow and learn from this experience, and they better understand that they should be more mindful not to be jerks to others.

What I genuinely can't abide (either rhetorically or ethically) are the mealy-mouthed defenses of Sqoot's writing.

What they did was not okay, there's really no justification of it. And to their credit they have tried to apologize. I'm still not convinced that they have (yet) internalized why everyone is upset at them, and I think that's why the controversy has continued.

But the fact that you are willing to accuse others of being more demeaning than Sqoot simply because they are explaining their grievances is mega-weak. I hope you too grow and at some point come regret the defense of Sqoot's behavior you have offered here.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#56

People need to fucking lighten up. I would not have said what they said on the site, but it really was a stupid joke. Everyone jumps to conclusions that we're all a bunch of misogynistic assholes. The problem is, you can't understand someone over the internet. You can't understand someone's apology or who they are or any of that. Worse, the majority of these people calling this issue out online would NEVER confront s…

Your comment reads to me like you're saying that you're okay with believing in stereotypes about women [and men], and that you don't see any problem with maintaining rigid gender roles. This to me, is not congruous with the statement that you believe in equality.

> The problem is, you can't understand someone over the internet.

This is true, and that's why one should go out of their way to be welcoming to all-comers when promoting an event like this. There are things you can say to your friends that are not appropriate to say in a professional or more-public setting, because people have no way of knowing whether you're joking or just an asshole.

> Do I believe a woman should be able to do whatever the fuck she wants in this world, be it fighting fires or curing AIDS? Yes.

One of the things that would prevent your sister from doing that is misogynistic cultures in the [fire/AIDS/bug]-fighting community. Who wants to pursue a career in an environment where they're not welcome, or treated as second-class citizens? This is the reason people are reacting so strongly to this.

> For the most part men and women are aware of their stereotypical flaws. Search for "Shit girls say" on youtube and admire the view count. I don't know a single girl who didn't completely piss her pants watching that.

The thing is, not all men and women have the same flaws. Stereotypes tell us they do, but that isn't true. And there are plenty of people [1] who thought shit girls say was sexist (including me.) The reason I think it's sexist is because it portrays basically one way for women to be, and perpetuates the idea (while not outright saying it) that all women are like that.

[1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22shit+girls+say%22+sexist

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#57

There is another aspect of the apology that seems to be forgotten around here. Forgiveness. Yes, maybe they screwed up (I screw up more by 7am than most people do all day), but when someone apologizes the decent thing to do is accept it and move on with your life (and let them do the same).

I was wondering about this as well. I did think that the advertisement was sexist and made the hackathon seem exclusive to men. I don't know whether this incident was just an isolated bonehead move or it reveals incorrigible bad character in the people involved. I can see it either way depending on how I stare at it, but I don't believe I have enough data to make a firm conclusion. I don't have a pressing need to do so, so I will probably just leave the question unresolved in my mind. But for the people that have made firm conclusions, it seems like the apologies make no difference.

I would ask people that are unsatisfied by Sqoot's apologies: Could they issue any apology that would satisfy you?

We are supposedly talking about how to apologize and whether they can/should offer a better apology. But if nothing can change one's mind then we are really talking about whether the offense is forgivable or not, irrespective of the content of the apology.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#58
post #43
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After food, shelter and possibly respect from one's tribe, women are probably next on the hierarchy of needs for most men. Interestingly, even women tend to prefer looking at beautiful female forms to beautiful male forms. This isn't the kind of language that should be used by an event trying to attract female participants, but on the other hand I don't think many men would object to being listed as a "perk" at an ev…

The difference between your conceptual examples and what has happened here in reality is in part a matter of history. There is the history of women being objectified to promote and sell things, and the better part of society has decided that this history is in poor taste and is something to rise above, especially for a professionally affiliated event. There is no comparable history for men, and any event objectifying…

Actually, I think you may have misinterpreted me. It's not simply a matter of history or culture. There will be a greater market for looking at attractive females than for attractive males in the greater human culture until we have the ability and the will to re-engineer our biology. I would be very surprised if any level of condemning men and/or other social manipulation changes this in our lifetimes.

Sex sells. While there are good reasons for restrictions in many situations, the successful strategy will be to walk up to the line of what's acceptable, whether that is booth babes or simply having attractive people (particularly women) in PR and advertising materials. This isn't an ideal situation, but unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world.

I can respect people who wish we were built to value competence or altruism like this instead of sex. It's very hard to make progress without addressing reality, though. One of the more unfortunate things about political fads is that they make it difficult for people to even discuss issues. It's far easier to write-off, downmod or brand dissenting opinions as immoral, heretical, communist, sexist, divisive, etc... than it is to really probe them.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#59
post #49
post #39

People do realize that this is an apology right? You do realize that they did this twice right? Why in the world can't be just accept it and move on. It literally boggles the mind that people ARE STILL OFFENDED after an apology. Get over it! Geez...

An apology is nice. They wrote a good one too. However you do not have to accept an apology.

They wrote two apologies. Their first one was pretty terrible and did not show that they had actually processed why what they did was so offensive.

Their second apology was a bit better. But they claimed that their comment was "aimed to call attention to the male-dominated tech world through humor and intended to be inclusive."

Do they honestly expect us to believe that their comment was designed to be inclusive, so that's why they offered women serving male coders as a perk? (And this isn't just me reading into it. That's very literally what they said.)

I would have much more respect if they just came out and said that, in an attempt humor, they had made immature and sexist remarks and that they understand that their comment was harmful not only to women, but to non-straight men, and to hacker culture as a whole.

They're embarrassed, and rightfully so, but trying to BS around what they were doing doesn't help. Admit your faults directly and people will be much more forgiving.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#60
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexism (specifically in tech) is the new racism. If you go down that path of anything remotely sexist, expect to be torn to shreds just as quickly as if you made a racist remark. If people didn't get offended, then people like Sqoot will feel like it's totally OK to belittle women, even if they would never think to include racist jokes.

Actually that's the funny part, this "joke" was in no way belittling women, it's idolizing them. It was made at the expense of the stereotypical male geek to whom women are otherwise inaccessible. Somehow it was appropriated as being about the female attendees.

Yes... it's idolizing women... as sexual objects offered as a perk to male coders so that they can serve the men.

As a female coder, I'd rather not be offered as a perk to male coders. So, yeah, this is belittling.

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