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Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

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Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#21

Post by PaulHoule »

ck2 wrote: post #3

> this discovery surprised researchers No it didn't, not to anyone paying attention https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/n-acetyl-cysteine-... https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/exercise-and-vitam... https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/antioxidants-and-c... https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/evidence-piles-ant...

It's a major problem in anti-aging that many forms of "senescence" disable cancer cells. You might think you want more active stem cells to heal nicks and cuts and stuff like that but you don't want them running amok.

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#22

Post by [deleted] »

woadwarrior01 wrote: post #11
adrian_b wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As usual, the title is not accurate, as there is no "fuel". What happens is that the antioxidants, including vitamin C, stimulate the tumors to grow blood vessels. The tumors with better blood vessels grow faster. So the antioxidants that are good for you are also good for tumors. Therefore they must be avoided whenever cancer is identified and you have to take medication that is bad for you, but hopefully even worse…

Moreover, the paper specifically mentions administering Vitamin C, Vitamin E and N-acetyl-cysteine. The article casually throws in Vitamin A, Selenium and Zinc into the mix, none of which are mentioned in the paper.

[deleted]

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#23

Post by legulere »

bArray wrote: post #7

> Common antioxidants, such as vitamins A, C, selenium, and zinc, can stimulate the growth of blood vessels in cancer when taken in excess. Is this to say that once you have cancer, these are bad, or that they promote the possibility of getting cancer. The second part is because we are continuously getting cancerous cells, but for the most part our immune system can deal with them before they become a problem.

Cancers can grow so slow though that they're not becoming an issue, before the person dies of something else. Also it takes a while to notice cancer and around 50% of the population at some point get cancer that is noticed and warrants treatment.

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#26

Post by SamBam »

adrian_b wrote: post #6
fmitchell0 wrote: post #4

Here is the actual paper: https://www.jci.org/articles/view/169671

As usual, the title is not accurate, as there is no "fuel". What happens is that the antioxidants, including vitamin C, stimulate the tumors to grow blood vessels. The tumors with better blood vessels grow faster. So the antioxidants that are good for you are also good for tumors. Therefore they must be avoided whenever cancer is identified and you have to take medication that is bad for you, but hopefully even worse…

> As usual, the title is not accurate, as there is no "fuel". What happens is that the antioxidants, including vitamin C, stimulate the tumors to grow blood vessels.

What an odd nitpick, especially as it's incorrect.

> fuel, verb, 2: support, stimulate [1]

By improving the blood flow, it supports, stimulates, or fuels the growth of tumors.

1. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fuel

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#27

Post by brink »

ramoz wrote: post #10
jasfi wrote: post #5

Does this mean that people undergoing chemo shouldn't have any supplements at all? Lutein, for example, is a strong antioxidant but also has anti-cancer properties. Edit: thanks for the replies!

I was advised not to take supplements or antioxidants during chemo. "The healthier you are, then so too is your cancer." was something that threw me off a bit. Edit: just to be clear, at the point in which you already have cancer, the most important treatment is the science of chemotherapy. Antioxidants can in turn “strengthen” tumor cells (just as they do regular cells) and cause chemo resistance/refractory.

Sounds like a mythical riddle. "To survive, you must go knock on the doors of death."

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#28

Post by adrian_b »

dundarious wrote: post #16
adrian_b wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As usual, the title is not accurate, as there is no "fuel". What happens is that the antioxidants, including vitamin C, stimulate the tumors to grow blood vessels. The tumors with better blood vessels grow faster. So the antioxidants that are good for you are also good for tumors. Therefore they must be avoided whenever cancer is identified and you have to take medication that is bad for you, but hopefully even worse…

Would it not be more accurate to say, “they must be avoided in vitamin supplement form ”?

In general, supplements should not be taken without good reason, because their availability in concentrated form makes it very easy to consume too much, like is also the case for refined sugar.

Consuming too much of anything that is useful in small quantities, is either useless or harmful.

When restricted to the same small quantities that are normally available from natural sources, there are no significant differences between vitamins from supplements and from their natural sources.

There may be good reasons to use supplements, as long as their dosage is right. For instance, eating one raw red bell pepper per day will provide enough vitamin C for a human. However, the same amount of ascorbic acid powder costs ten times less where I live, in Europe. So either taste or budget may make the supplement preferable, which is fine, unless a much greater daily intake is used than it would have been provided by the bell pepper.

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#29

Post by ttul »

bArray wrote: post #7

> Common antioxidants, such as vitamins A, C, selenium, and zinc, can stimulate the growth of blood vessels in cancer when taken in excess. Is this to say that once you have cancer, these are bad, or that they promote the possibility of getting cancer. The second part is because we are continuously getting cancerous cells, but for the most part our immune system can deal with them before they become a problem.

If you are doing chemotherapy, your oncologist may tell you to avoid vitamin C and other anti-oxidants precisely because the chemotherapy drugs rely on oxidation to kill the cancer cells.

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#30

Post by thenerdhead »

Other clickbait titles could be "Eating fruit and vegetables accelerates cancer". Which is frankly not true. It requires the BACH1 protein to be present in tumor cells.

The claim more simplified would be something like excess antioxidants help protect cells and thus grow. Also reasoning as to why you don't take high-dose antioxidants when going through treatment. Because it can interfere through protective mechanisms.

The irony of this research is this somewhat brings up the age-old debate on Pauling's cancer work yet again.

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