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The technical merits of Wayland are mostly irrelevant

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Re: The technical merits of Wayland are mostly irrelevant

#101
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you please talk more about this? * What is your condition exactly? * What were you using on X that made you healthy? * How is it broken on Wayland?

Various nerve stuff in my arms, limiting my use of keyboards. With an ergonomic keyboard I can get through most days, but I’m having more flare ups lately so I’m doing more voice coding. I use Talon. It simply doesn’t support Wayland, and I believe its maintainer who says that there are issues with Wayland which make support infeasible. Using it on X makes my nerve pain much less.

> and I believe its maintainer who says that there are issues with Wayland which make support infeasible.

* Where did they say that?

* What are the issues?

I am trying to narrow down exactly what the issues are. Too much of the conversation is 'something' is broken in Wayland because of 'something'.

Re: The technical merits of Wayland are mostly irrelevant

#102

The security benefits are massive. X allows *every* application to take screenshots of the whole screen. 40 comments and nobody pointed out this benefit...

Even snap/flatpak frequently give flat-out full filesystem access, so the desktop is already insecure as heck and the security advantages are all theoretical.

It's like nitpicking what lock the door has when the window is left wide open.

Re: The technical merits of Wayland are mostly irrelevant

#103

The security benefits are massive. X allows *every* application to take screenshots of the whole screen. 40 comments and nobody pointed out this benefit...

Meanwhile, people who actually have to screen-share are having trouble in Wayland. So maybe this policy of "don't trust any code ever" has some downsides. It's the usual "convenience vs. security" debate all over again

I've not had any issues with screen sharing in, like, 3 years.

The problem is that people use video chat clients by vendors that don't give a crap about Linux.

Re: The technical merits of Wayland are mostly irrelevant

#104
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you please talk more about this? * What is your condition exactly? * What were you using on X that made you healthy? * How is it broken on Wayland?

> What were you using on X that made you healthy? Well my WM for a start. It did not migrate to Wayland. And I also need to share screen from time to time (teams, Google chat, etc), which results in a dark screen for viewers in Wayland.

* What is your WM?

* Have they posted what is blocking them? Besides a lack of hands on keyboards?

I am trying to narrow down exactly what the issues are. Too much of the conversation is 'something' is broken in Wayland because of 'something'.

Re: The technical merits of Wayland are mostly irrelevant

#105
Generalizing: the technical merits of are mostly irrelevant. People use software- or any other tool- to solve actual problems that they have, not because they are prettier technically.

For example, I have been using Pipewire for a while now, because I have to use a USB sound card intermittently. I don't think it is bad, but I wish I did not have to switch card so I could use ALSA directly. I don't care if PW is technically "superior", for me ALSA worked and I could get perfect audio even if the computer mostly hanged.

I use XCFE because I need to get stuff done and XFCE does not change the UI or move buttons around. It does not support wayland. I don't have time to fiddle with config files or to use a DE that churns the UI on each release.

The articles arguing for the technical superiority of always sound like they are scorning the user for not recognizing the obvious superiority of the new thing. Almost like they considered anyone who does not adopt the new system stupid.

Re: The technical merits of Wayland are mostly irrelevant

#106
post #56
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What were you using on X that made you healthy? Well my WM for a start. It did not migrate to Wayland. And I also need to share screen from time to time (teams, Google chat, etc), which results in a dark screen for viewers in Wayland.

I despise Teams but when I was forced to use it for work and screensharing didn't work, I had to flee back to X. Any updates from Microsoft on this issue?

I could not get Teams to even install on Xorg. At the time, screen sharing did not work in the browser.

Thankfully, my employer uses Google Meet for most of the meetings.

Re: The technical merits of Wayland are mostly irrelevant

#107
post #78

The blogpost cited by Chris angered me so much! Author at first glance appears as just a user and developer on Linux, in fact they are a full blown Fedora-GNOME-Wayland follower and what I read was a Fedora advertising piece. Since the inception of systemd (but this trend is older than systemd, take for example Ulrich Drepper's work on glibc) I tend to notice a pattern, and they are the same as the Apple fanboy stere…

> Author at first glance appears as just a user and developer on Linux, in fact they are a full blown Fedora-GNOME-Wayland follower and what I read was a Fedora advertising piece.

I'm assuming you're talking about [0], but I can't for the life of me figure out why you say this. It doesn't mention Fedora once!

> Since the inception of systemd (but this trend is older than systemd, take for example Ulrich Drepper's work on glibc) I tend to notice a pattern, and they are the same as the Apple fanboy stereotype (an endangered specie nowadays).

There's an insinuation here that should be spelled out rather than being made via oblique references to existing stereotypes. What exactly is the pattern you've noticed?

[0] https://orowith2os.gitlab.io/posts/wayland-breaks-your-bad-s...

Re: The technical merits of Wayland are mostly irrelevant

#108
post #71
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> X is competing against specialist applications like VNC I stay with X because it lets me have multiple independent logins with their own desktops. The last time I checked, Wayland doesn't support this, and this is well outside of what VNC does. This is a very important facility to me.

Can you elaborate on this one? You can of course have multiple Wayland displays at once, and/or multiple VNC servers. But, presumably, you're talking about something entirely different here.

X lets me log into a machine multiple times simultaneously, with each login having its own, independently operating desktop. Wayland doesn't support this (or didn't the last time I checked). VNC does something entirely different from this -- it just shares an existing desktop remotely rather than providing a unique independent desktop (complete with different resolutions and such, if you like).

So the effect is a bit like VNC in that you can remotely access a desktop, but the desktop you see is not a copy of the one being actually displayed on the machine's monitor. It's entirely its own thing, only visible to that particular login.

Re: The technical merits of Wayland are mostly irrelevant

#109
post #7

Very true. Wayland is now stable enough to be used in a lot of "production" environments and I've been using Sway as my desktop for years , and yet still, there is work left to be done: - Hardware support. NVIDIA support is spotty still. Easily the biggest issue IMO, though it's better than it was. - Network operation. X will always be better here because it was designed to be (at least with toolkits that can still t…

I just had to look it up; Wayland has been around for 14 years already. How much software takes 14 years and still isn't stable? How big and / or complicated is this problem and the codebase anyway?

For one thing, Wayland is a protocol, not a specific piece of software. But mostly, that progress has been non-linear. A ton of it is not about writing code, or even about Wayland itself; much of it tied into the modernization of the Linux and general open source graphics ecosystem, moving it away from being oriented around X.org specifically and implementing modern features like generic buffer management and kernel modesetting. A lot of setbacks have been simply waiting on NVIDIA to support these modern facilities well in their still-very-popular proprietary drivers.

HDR support has been in the works for years. Why? Well, nothing terribly specific to do with Wayland: there has been a ridiculously deep dive into the entire space of color management, wide-gamut colorspaces, etc. to try to build HDR protocols that don't merely just get things out the door, but ideally support current and future use cases for the foreseeable future, have good backwards compatibility and handling of unaware apps, etc. These things are non-trivial and can't be solved by writing code or staring at GDB. (Not to mention there are few drivers that can currently support this, so it's also a bit of a chicken and egg problem.)

That is to say, Wayland is a lot less of a software problem than it is a design and social problem. And as you can probably see, ultimately, Wayland will be nobody's favorite, but hopefully with time, it can at least be everybody's favorite.

Re: The technical merits of Wayland are mostly irrelevant

#110

There are some technical problems - especially in areas like introducing new security controls - where the upsides are relatively obscure from the perspective of end users while the downsides are obvious. Changes where there are plenty of chances to garner negative attention, but almost none to garner positive attention, and the ultimate success would be for the work to go completely un-noticed. From an end user's pe…

> introducing new security controls

Messing with clipboard has nothing to do with security. I bet the web browser (and other programs who do RCE or phone home) still has access to all my files in wayland, just like in X

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