Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

studyfinds.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 69 posts

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#11

Post by woadwarrior01 »

adrian_b wrote: post #6
fmitchell0 wrote: post #4

Here is the actual paper: https://www.jci.org/articles/view/169671

As usual, the title is not accurate, as there is no "fuel". What happens is that the antioxidants, including vitamin C, stimulate the tumors to grow blood vessels. The tumors with better blood vessels grow faster. So the antioxidants that are good for you are also good for tumors. Therefore they must be avoided whenever cancer is identified and you have to take medication that is bad for you, but hopefully even worse…

Moreover, the paper specifically mentions administering Vitamin C, Vitamin E and N-acetyl-cysteine. The article casually throws in Vitamin A, Selenium and Zinc into the mix, none of which are mentioned in the paper.

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#12

Post by adrian_b »

cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #9
adrian_b wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As usual, the title is not accurate, as there is no "fuel". What happens is that the antioxidants, including vitamin C, stimulate the tumors to grow blood vessels. The tumors with better blood vessels grow faster. So the antioxidants that are good for you are also good for tumors. Therefore they must be avoided whenever cancer is identified and you have to take medication that is bad for you, but hopefully even worse…

> Therefore they must be avoided and you have to take medication that is bad for you, but hopefully even worse for tumors. Is that basically what chemotherapy is?

Yes.

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#13

Post by legulere »

adrian_b wrote: post #6
fmitchell0 wrote: post #4

Here is the actual paper: https://www.jci.org/articles/view/169671

As usual, the title is not accurate, as there is no "fuel". What happens is that the antioxidants, including vitamin C, stimulate the tumors to grow blood vessels. The tumors with better blood vessels grow faster. So the antioxidants that are good for you are also good for tumors. Therefore they must be avoided whenever cancer is identified and you have to take medication that is bad for you, but hopefully even worse…

> So the antioxidants that are good for you are also good for tumors.

I think the consensus is that supplements aren't useful as long as you don't have a deficiency (which is pretty uncommon in the west if you aren't eating particularly bad).

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#14

Post by boxed »

jasfi wrote: post #5

Does this mean that people undergoing chemo shouldn't have any supplements at all? Lutein, for example, is a strong antioxidant but also has anti-cancer properties. Edit: thanks for the replies!

It might just mean "wait for replication"

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#15

Post by adrian_b »

bArray wrote: post #7

> Common antioxidants, such as vitamins A, C, selenium, and zinc, can stimulate the growth of blood vessels in cancer when taken in excess. Is this to say that once you have cancer, these are bad, or that they promote the possibility of getting cancer. The second part is because we are continuously getting cancerous cells, but for the most part our immune system can deal with them before they become a problem.

The paper says nothing about promoting the possibility of getting cancer.

Only after the cancer is advanced enough that the cancerous cells have formed a tumor, according to this study the antioxidants promote the growth of the blood vessels of the tumor, which is very undesirable, because the better vascularized a tumor is, the faster it grows.

When there is no cancer, promoting the growth of the blood vessels is a desirable effect.

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#16

Post by dundarious »

adrian_b wrote: post #6
fmitchell0 wrote: post #4

Here is the actual paper: https://www.jci.org/articles/view/169671

As usual, the title is not accurate, as there is no "fuel". What happens is that the antioxidants, including vitamin C, stimulate the tumors to grow blood vessels. The tumors with better blood vessels grow faster. So the antioxidants that are good for you are also good for tumors. Therefore they must be avoided whenever cancer is identified and you have to take medication that is bad for you, but hopefully even worse…

Would it not be more accurate to say, “they must be avoided in vitamin supplement form”?

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#17

Post by itsoktocry »

bArray wrote: post #7

> Common antioxidants, such as vitamins A, C, selenium, and zinc, can stimulate the growth of blood vessels in cancer when taken in excess. Is this to say that once you have cancer, these are bad, or that they promote the possibility of getting cancer. The second part is because we are continuously getting cancerous cells, but for the most part our immune system can deal with them before they become a problem.

>Is this to say that once you have cancer, these are bad, or that they promote the possibility of getting cancer.

Aren't we all and always in some state of "having cancer"? It's just a crappy modification away.

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#18

Post by refurb »

ck2 wrote: post #3

> this discovery surprised researchers No it didn't, not to anyone paying attention https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/n-acetyl-cysteine-... https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/exercise-and-vitam... https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/antioxidants-and-c... https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/evidence-piles-ant...

Exactly, it’s been well known for a while.

There was a paper comparing physical fitness between two groups - one got high dose vitamin C, one didn’t.

The ones take high dose vitamin C saw a far worse improvement in physical fitness.

Why? Metabolism generates free radicals. The body used that as a signal to drive the changes that result in improved physical fitness.

It’s one of those things where a given molecule has both positive and negative implications for the body.

Re: Taking dietary supplements full of antioxidants could help cancerous tumors grow

#19

Post by datavirtue »

adrian_b wrote: post #15
bArray wrote: post #7

> Common antioxidants, such as vitamins A, C, selenium, and zinc, can stimulate the growth of blood vessels in cancer when taken in excess. Is this to say that once you have cancer, these are bad, or that they promote the possibility of getting cancer. The second part is because we are continuously getting cancerous cells, but for the most part our immune system can deal with them before they become a problem.

The paper says nothing about promoting the possibility of getting cancer. Only after the cancer is advanced enough that the cancerous cells have formed a tumor, according to this study the antioxidants promote the growth of the blood vessels of the tumor, which is very undesirable, because the better vascularized a tumor is, the faster it grows. When there is no cancer, promoting the growth of the blood vessels is a…

In the article they clearly state that this applies for those with elevated risk. Those without cancer.

Seems to make sense. If a tumor starts growing you won't know it. Meanwhile the antioxidants are helping it.

Post reply on HN