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Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

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Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#91

Post by rob74 »

PrimeMcFly wrote: post #81
rob74 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If CSAM was still done the way it "always has been", then "cops" relying on the methods they always had would be a valid answer. But since tech has enabled the distribution of CSAM at unprecedented scales, I think the requests by law enforcement to also make their job a bit easier have some merit...

I don't. They can find those materials the same way abusers work their way into communities to have access to them in the first place. The increased scale only means they need more people working on it.

More people. Paid from taxes. Ok, let's increase taxes! Oh, wait...

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#92

Post by gnfargbl »

glogla wrote: post #64
gnfargbl wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused by what you mean by "morality" here. The only moral position that I am communicating is that child sexual abuse is a real thing that really happens, and it is bad for both the individual and for society. That's it. There's no subtext. There is explicitly no refutation of the arguments against client-side CSAM scanning which, I will say again, are unambiguously correct. Is being against child sexual abuse…

> Is being against child sexual abuse really an unusual opinion in the tech industry? Nobody said that. You are being manipulative an trying to make it look that people who disagree with you are somehow pro-child abuse. In saying "Does the tech industry have any alternate solutions that could functionally mitigate this abuse?" you are trying to pain a picture in which child abuse is somehow "tech industry" fault. You…

This thread is tending towards flamewar so I'll try to dial back, but I do want to respond.

> You are being manipulative an trying to make it look that people who disagree with you are somehow pro-child abuse.

I am not doing that. You described my position as an "alien morality", to which another poster seemed to agree. I was responding to that by clarifying the actual moral point I was making. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not arguing that you are pro-child abuse.

> In saying "Does the tech industry have any alternate solutions that could functionally mitigate this abuse?" you are trying to pain a picture in which child abuse is somehow "tech industry" fault.

Yes, this is basically a correct understanding of my position. I am stating that the problem has been massively exacerbated by the adoption of E2EE by the tech industry, and that the tech industry therefore has a moral responsibility to deal with the unintended consequences of its own action.

> the truth is that personal communication was private for hundreds of years, because it was impossible for the state to listen in on everything.

The truth is that in pre-internet times, networks of pedophiles could be dismantled by the state, partly through surveillance -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedophile_Information_Exchang... for a supporting example.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#93

Post by Moldoteck »

ben_w wrote: post #83
traceroute66 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> criminals are using E2EE communication systems to share sexual abuse material Blah blah blah, the same old argument given by the "think of the children" people. There are many ways to counter that old chestnut, but really, we only need to remember the most basic fundamental facts: 1) Encryption is mathematics 2) Criminals are criminals Can you ban mathematics ? No. Can you stop criminals being criminals ? No. So, l…

> But the criminals ? Do you honestly think they'll think "oh no, game over" ? > No of course not. They'll pay some cryptographer in need of some money to develop a new E2EE tool and carry on. Business as usual. I used to think this, I changed my mind: just as it's difficult to do security correctly even when it's a legal requirement, only the most competent criminal organisations will do this correctly. Unfortunatel…

they can just use/switch to unpatched devices with some opensource e2ee without big effort. Result? Criminals will continue doing criminal stuff, rest of the planet will be under surveillance system that can be altered at govt/company's will without your knowledge to either target specific ppl(from govt) or target groups of ppl(for 'relevant' ads)

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#94

Post by ben_w »

Moldoteck wrote: post #93
ben_w wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the criminals ? Do you honestly think they'll think "oh no, game over" ? > No of course not. They'll pay some cryptographer in need of some money to develop a new E2EE tool and carry on. Business as usual. I used to think this, I changed my mind: just as it's difficult to do security correctly even when it's a legal requirement, only the most competent criminal organisations will do this correctly. Unfortunatel…

they can just use/switch to unpatched devices with some opensource e2ee without big effort. Result? Criminals will continue doing criminal stuff, rest of the planet will be under surveillance system that can be altered at govt/company's will without your knowledge to either target specific ppl(from govt) or target groups of ppl(for 'relevant' ads)

> they can just use/switch to unpatched devices with some opensource e2ee without big effort.

Assuming no new zero-days, and that they were even doing best practices in the first place. How many legit companies do best practices?

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#95

Post by figlett »

krapp wrote: post #86
figlett wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like an entirely unreasonable assumption to me. Advocating for child safety is something that transcends political differences, and generally unifies people across the political spectrum. I mean, there aren't many people who want paedophiles to be able to amass huge collections of child abuse imagery from other paedophiles online. And pretty much every parent wants their child to be kept safe from predators…

I didn't claim otherwise. The fact remains that a specific subset of a specific political party has been using "advocating for child safety" as a pretext to accelerate fear of and harassment against the LGBT community and "the left" in general for years now, and they put a lot of effort into appearing legitimate. And yes, because their politics are becoming normalized within American culture, it is necessary to be sk…

Well, paedophiles hijacking leftist movements for their own ends is a known problem, it's happened before and it will happen again. One particularly infamous instance occurred in the UK back in the 1970s:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/02/how-paedoph...

So if there are indeed some right-wing groups talking about this, maybe it's best not to brush off their claims without some scrutiny first. And I say this as someone who mostly agrees with the left on most things.

Anyway I don't think that any of this has much to do with Apple being asked to implement specific technical measures for detecting child abuse imagery.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#96

Post by PrimeMcFly »

rob74 wrote: post #91
PrimeMcFly wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't. They can find those materials the same way abusers work their way into communities to have access to them in the first place. The increased scale only means they need more people working on it.

More people. Paid from taxes. Ok, let's increase taxes! Oh, wait...

Well yes, let's absolutely increase taxes for the ultra-wealthy why don't pay nearly enough. I don't see the problem.

That aside, we could also, at least in the US, stop taking such a ridiculous stance against drugs and instead prioritize finding makers of CSASM materials.

The people are there, they are just not being utilized effectively.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#97

Post by gnfargbl »

bigDinosaur wrote: post #32
gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

The extreme hysteria created by anything related to children often seems to be carte blanche to destroy privacy and implement backdoors in applications. Most child abuse comes from family members (which must be solved at the source), and the ultra extreme cases simply make awful law (doing away with E2EE or instituting mass surveillance to catch an incredibly small minority is absurd). Much like other 'tough on crime…

> Most child abuse comes from family members (which must be solved at the source)

Yes. Since becoming an abuser is a process and not a moment, part of the solution must be making access to CSAM much harder.

> And no, we are not 'condoning' it when we declare E2EE an overall good thing.

Agreed. I'm sorry if I worded things in a way that caused you to see an implication which was not intended. To be clear: E2EE is a good thing. Championing E2EE is not equivalent to condoning CSAM.

What I did say is that in failing to try and provide any meaningful solutions to this unintended consequence of E2EE, the industry is effectively condoning the problem.

> This is a standard utilitarian tradeoff

If that's the best we can do, I'm very disappointed. That position says that to achieve privacy, I must tolerate CSAM. I want both privacy and for us not to tolerate CSAM. I don't know what the solution is, but that is what I wish the industry were aiming for. At the moment, the industry seems to be aiming for nothing but a shrug of the shoulders.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#98

Post by formerly_proven »

figlett wrote: post #95
krapp wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't claim otherwise. The fact remains that a specific subset of a specific political party has been using "advocating for child safety" as a pretext to accelerate fear of and harassment against the LGBT community and "the left" in general for years now, and they put a lot of effort into appearing legitimate. And yes, because their politics are becoming normalized within American culture, it is necessary to be sk…

Well, paedophiles hijacking leftist movements for their own ends is a known problem, it's happened before and it will happen again. One particularly infamous instance occurred in the UK back in the 1970s: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/02/how-paedoph... So if there are indeed some right-wing groups talking about this, maybe it's best not to brush off their claims without some scrutiny first. And I say…

> So if there are indeed some right-wing groups talking about this, maybe it's best not to brush off their claims without some scrutiny first. And I say this as someone who mostly agrees with the left on most things.

Figlet indeed.

> figlett 5 months ago [flagged] [dead] | parent | context | prev [–] | on: Florida courts could take 'emergency' custody of k...

> This is excellent news for children at risk of being abused by militant transgenders and the medical establishment who are enabling them. Thank you Florida for trying to put an end to this menace.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35029166

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#99

Post by figlett »

formerly_proven wrote: post #98
figlett wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, paedophiles hijacking leftist movements for their own ends is a known problem, it's happened before and it will happen again. One particularly infamous instance occurred in the UK back in the 1970s: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/02/how-paedoph... So if there are indeed some right-wing groups talking about this, maybe it's best not to brush off their claims without some scrutiny first. And I say…

> So if there are indeed some right-wing groups talking about this, maybe it's best not to brush off their claims without some scrutiny first. And I say this as someone who mostly agrees with the left on most things. Figlet indeed. > figlett 5 months ago [flagged] [dead] | parent | context | prev [–] | on: Florida courts could take 'emergency' custody of k... > This is excellent news for children at risk of being abu…

Exactly, this is one area where the political left, particularly in the US, are failing terribly on child safety.

I'm in the UK and we're doing better here though, the main left-wing party is backing away from the particular ideology that has enabled this. I was going to vote for them anyway as we desperately need our public services to be restored and welfare for those less fortunate in society to be improved, but I'm pleased they're moving towards a sensible, harm-reducing stance on this issue rather than assuming everything the gender activists say is reasonable.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#100

Post by Moldoteck »

ben_w wrote: post #94
Moldoteck wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they can just use/switch to unpatched devices with some opensource e2ee without big effort. Result? Criminals will continue doing criminal stuff, rest of the planet will be under surveillance system that can be altered at govt/company's will without your knowledge to either target specific ppl(from govt) or target groups of ppl(for 'relevant' ads)

> they can just use/switch to unpatched devices with some opensource e2ee without big effort. Assuming no new zero-days, and that they were even doing best practices in the first place. How many legit companies do best practices?

zero days are irrelevant imo, zero days are for targeted attacks(assuming it's from gov), exploiting all zerodays for all devices is not that productive, csam scan on the other hand can handle both untargeted and targeted surveilance: untargeted by spotting bad actors from a generic csam list, targeted - by adding to that list target's face/specific things to locate it and monitor it.

That's the point, bad actors can circumvent the system if they feel threatened, but system can be exploited by gov/companies once rolled out globally to target any user, so we get something that may be not that effective against bad actors but poses great risk to be misused by gov/company in their own interests without users knowing. I've seen how an authoritarian gov in my country is targeting ppl bc they are uncomfortable for the system and this algorithm opens another potential vector of attack.

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