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Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

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Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#61

Post by michaelt »

0x000042 wrote: post #38
sneak wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

e2ee for iCloud is currently opt-in, without prompts/nudging. Most power users don't even have it turned on or are aware of its existence. The setting is buried/hidden in submenus. Approximately no one uses it. Hopefully Apple will begin promoting users to migrate in future updates.

> The setting is buried/hidden in submenus. Mind sharing where it is on an iPhone and Mac? I have not been able to find it.

It's called "Advanced Data Protection for iCloud"

It's kinda complicated to turn on, as it disables most account recovery options.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#62

Post by PrimeMcFly »

passwordoops wrote: post #25
figlett wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So despite looking a bit fishy at first, this doesn't seem to come from a christofascist group. Why would you assume this in the first place?

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#63

Post by JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B »

0x000042 wrote: post #38
sneak wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

e2ee for iCloud is currently opt-in, without prompts/nudging. Most power users don't even have it turned on or are aware of its existence. The setting is buried/hidden in submenus. Approximately no one uses it. Hopefully Apple will begin promoting users to migrate in future updates.

> The setting is buried/hidden in submenus. Mind sharing where it is on an iPhone and Mac? I have not been able to find it.

It was announced some time ago, but remember that you need modern devices on both sides to enable that feature.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#64

Post by glogla »

gnfargbl wrote: post #54
red_admiral wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This morality may not be so unusual outside the tech "filter bubble". And wherever someone, like the OP, appears to be serious, my own personal morality says the absolute least they deserve is an equally serious answer.

I'm confused by what you mean by "morality" here. The only moral position that I am communicating is that child sexual abuse is a real thing that really happens, and it is bad for both the individual and for society. That's it. There's no subtext. There is explicitly no refutation of the arguments against client-side CSAM scanning which, I will say again, are unambiguously correct. Is being against child sexual abuse…

> Is being against child sexual abuse really an unusual opinion in the tech industry?

Nobody said that. You are being manipulative an trying to make it look that people who disagree with you are somehow pro-child abuse.

In saying "Does the tech industry have any alternate solutions that could functionally mitigate this abuse?" you are trying to pain a picture in which child abuse is somehow "tech industry" fault.

You are also trying to paint a complete Panopticon in which every interpersonal communication is subjected to surveillance by the state as somehow the default, that end to end encrypted electronic communication is changing - while the truth is that personal communication was private for hundreds of years, because it was impossible for the state to listen in on everything.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#65

Post by rob74 »

PrimeMcFly wrote: post #12
gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

It's an incredibly bad thing. It's also an incredibly poor excuse to justify backdooring phones. Cops need to investigate the same way they always have, look for clues, go undercover, infiltrate, find where this stuff is actually being made, etc. Scanning everyone's phones would make their jobs significantly easier, no doubt, but it simply isn't worth the cost to us as a society and there is simply no good counter-ar…

If CSAM was still done the way it "always has been", then "cops" relying on the methods they always had would be a valid answer. But since tech has enabled the distribution of CSAM at unprecedented scales, I think the requests by law enforcement to also make their job a bit easier have some merit...

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#66

Post by candiodari »

danpalmer wrote: post #26
version_five wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass surveillance is never an appropriate solution, let's start with that. I don't belive tech has an over weighted responsibility to solve society's problems, and in fact it's generally better if we don't try and pretend more tech is the answer. Advocating for more money and more prioritization for this area of law enforcement is still the way to go if it's a priority area. Policing seems to be drifting towards "mal…

Mass surveillance is bad, but I think there are versions of it that are far less bad than others. Apple's proposed solution would have theoretically only reported cases that were much more than likely to be already known instances of CSAM (i.e. not pictures of your kids), and if nothing else is reported, can we say that they were really surveilled? In some very strict sense, yes, but in terms of outcomes, no.

How about we start with this version of surveillance: currently it is almost impossible, and frankly stupid, for kids to ask for help with abuse, because they'll end up in this sort of system (with no way out one might add)

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/07/26/texas-foster-care-ch...

So how about we implement mass-surveillance by giving victims a good reason to report crimes? Starting with not heavily punishing victims that do come forward. Make the foster care system actually able to raise kids reasonably.

Because, frankly, if we don't do it this way, what's the point? Why would we do anything about abuse if we don't fix this FIRST? Are we really going to catch sexual abuse, then put the kids into a state-administered system ... where they're sexually, and physically, and mentally, and financially abused?

WHY would you do that? Obviously that doesn't protect children, it only hides abuse, it protects perpetrators in trade for allowing society to pretend the problem is smaller than it is.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#67

Post by cmcaleer »

rafale wrote: post #11

False positives would constitute a huge invasion of privacy. Even actual positives would be, a mom taking a private picture of her naked baby, how can you report that. They did well dropping this insane plan. The slippery slope argument is also a solid one.

NYT article about exactly this situation[0]. Despite the generally technical competency of HN readership, I imagine there would be a lot of people who would find themselves completely fucked if this situation happened to them.

The tl;dr is that despite this man ultimately having his name cleared by the police after having his entire Google account history (not just cloud) searched as well his logs from a warrant served to ISP, Google closed his account when the alleged CSAM was detected and never reinstated it. He lost his emails, cloud pictures, phone number (which losing access to prevented the police from contacting him via phone), and more all while going through a gross, massive invasion of his privacy because he was trying to do right for his child during a time when face-to-face doctor appointments were difficult to come by.

This should be a particularly salient reminder to people to self-host at the very least the domain for their primary and professional e-mail.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveil...

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#68

Post by jmyeet »

Part of the reason why this was (and is) a terrible idea is how these companies operate and the cost and stigma of a false negative.

Companies don't want to employ people. People are annoying. They make annoying demands like wanting time off and having enough money to not be homeless or starving. AI should be a tool that enhances the productivity of a worker rather than replacing them.

Fully automated "safety" systems always get weaponized. This is really apparent on Tiktok where reporting users you don't like is clearly brigaded becasue a certain number of reports in a given period triggers automatic takedowns and bans regardless of assurances there is human review (there isn't). It's so incredibly obvious when you see a duet with a threatening video gets taken down while the original video doesn't (with reports showing "No violation").

Additionally, companies like to just ban your account with absolutely no explanation, accountability, right to review or right to appeal. Again, all those things would require employing people.

False positives can be incredibly damaging. Not only could this result in your account being banned (possibly with the loss of all your photos on something like iCloud/iPhotos) but it may get you in trouble with law enforcement.

Don't believe me? Hertz was falsely reported their cars being stolen [1], which created massive problems for those affected. In a better world, Hertz executives would be in prison for making false police reports (which, for you and me, is a crime) but that will never happen to executives.

It still requires human review to identify offending content. Mass shootings have been live streamed. No automatic system is going to be able to accurately differentiate between this and, say, a movie scene. I guarantee you any automated system will have similar problems differentiating between actual CSAM and, say, a child in the bath or at the beach.

These companies don't want to solve these problems. They simply want legal and PR cover for appearing to solve them, consequences be damned.

[1]: https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusa...

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#69

Post by SoullessSilent »

version_five wrote: post #22
gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

Mass surveillance is never an appropriate solution, let's start with that. I don't belive tech has an over weighted responsibility to solve society's problems, and in fact it's generally better if we don't try and pretend more tech is the answer. Advocating for more money and more prioritization for this area of law enforcement is still the way to go if it's a priority area. Policing seems to be drifting towards "mal…

I would prefer advocating more money for mental health as it would provide additional benefits in other areas of society down the line too? I can't imagine child porn consumption rising from a healthy mind.
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