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Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

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Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#21

Post by danpalmer »

gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

I agree that those statements are correct, however my reading of the proposed Apple implementation was that it struck a good balance between maximising the ability to discover CSAM, minimising the threat vectors, minimising false positives, and minimising the possibility that a malicious government could force Apple to implement bulk surveillance.

I'm all for privacy, but those who put it above all else are already likely not using Apple devices because of the lack of control. I feel like for Apple's target market the implementation was reasonable.

I think Apple backed down on it because of the vocal minority of privacy zealots (for want of a better term) decided it wasn't the right set of trade-offs for them. Given Apple's aim to be a leader in privacy they had to appease this group. I think that community provides a lot of value and oversight, and I broadly agree with their views, but in this case it feels like we lost a big win on the fight against CSAM in order to gain minor, theoretical benefits for user privacy.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#22

Post by version_five »

gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

Mass surveillance is never an appropriate solution, let's start with that.

I don't belive tech has an over weighted responsibility to solve society's problems, and in fact it's generally better if we don't try and pretend more tech is the answer.

Advocating for more money and more prioritization for this area of law enforcement is still the way to go if it's a priority area. Policing seems to be drifting towards "mall cop" work, giving easy fines, enabled by lazy electronic surveillance casting a wide net. Let's put resources towards actual detective work.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#23

Post by gruturo »

> "Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit"

> "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types."

Yes, and it was patently obvious from the onset. Why did it take a massive public backlash to actually reason about this? Can we get a promise that future initiatives will be evaluated a bit more critically before crap like this bubbles to the top again? Come on you DO hire bright people, what's your actual problem here?

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#24

Post by krapp »

figlett wrote: post #10
formerly_proven wrote: post #8

The who is often interesting with these stories. > a new child safety group known as Heat Initiative Doesn't even have a website or any kind of social media presence; it literally doesn't appear to exist apart from the reporting on Apple's response to them, which is entirely based on Apple sharing their response with media, not the group interacting with media. > Sarah Gardner on the other hand previously appeared as…

> So despite looking a bit fishy at first, this doesn't seem to come from a christofascist group. Why would you assume this in the first place?

The main impetus behind "child safety" advocacy nowadays seem to be by cells of extremist right-wing Christian / QAnon types who believe in conspiracy theories like Pizzagate and the "gay groomer" panic. It's a reasonable assumption to make about any such group mentioned in the media that doesn't have an established history at least prior to 2016.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#25

Post by passwordoops »

figlett wrote: post #10
formerly_proven wrote: post #8

The who is often interesting with these stories. > a new child safety group known as Heat Initiative Doesn't even have a website or any kind of social media presence; it literally doesn't appear to exist apart from the reporting on Apple's response to them, which is entirely based on Apple sharing their response with media, not the group interacting with media. > Sarah Gardner on the other hand previously appeared as…

> So despite looking a bit fishy at first, this doesn't seem to come from a christofascist group. Why would you assume this in the first place?

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Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#26

Post by danpalmer »

version_five wrote: post #22
gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

Mass surveillance is never an appropriate solution, let's start with that. I don't belive tech has an over weighted responsibility to solve society's problems, and in fact it's generally better if we don't try and pretend more tech is the answer. Advocating for more money and more prioritization for this area of law enforcement is still the way to go if it's a priority area. Policing seems to be drifting towards "mal…

Mass surveillance is bad, but I think there are versions of it that are far less bad than others.

Apple's proposed solution would have theoretically only reported cases that were much more than likely to be already known instances of CSAM (i.e. not pictures of your kids), and if nothing else is reported, can we say that they were really surveilled? In some very strict sense, yes, but in terms of outcomes, no.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#28

Post by awesomeMilou »

gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

I'd very much like a source on your claim that "[...] criminals are using E2EE communication systems to share sexual abuse material in ways and at rates which they were not previously able to."

> Does the tech industry have any alternate solutions that could functionally mitigate this abuse? Does the industry feel that it has any responsibility at all to do so? Or do we all just shout "yay, individual freedom wins again!" and forget about the actual problem that this (misguided) initiative was originally aimed at?

The issue at large here is not the tech industry, but law enforcement agencies and the correctional system. Law enforcement has proven time and time again themselves that the most effective way to apprehend large criminal networks in this area is by undercover investigation.

So no, I don't think it is the tech industries role to play the extended arm of some ill conceived surveillance state. Because Apple is right: This is a slippery slope and anyone that doesn't think malicious political actors will use this as a foot in the door to argue for more invasive surveillance measures, using this exact pre-filtering technology are just naive idiots, in my oppinion.

Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#29

Post by danpalmer »

draw_down wrote: post #20
gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

[dead]

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Re: Apple clarifies why it abandoned plan to detect CSAM in iCloud photos

#30

Post by acumenical »

gnfargbl wrote: post #9

> “Scanning every user’s privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit," Neuenschwander wrote. "It would also inject the potential for a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types.” Both of th…

[flagged]
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