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We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

blog.sqoot.com

21–30 of 81 posts

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#21
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or there is a legimate problem here?

I personally don't think so. Everyone knows that Hackathons are widely male dominated. Yes, the comment was a little out of line in a professional content, but forgive them for trying to crack some humour and have some fun with their ad. Have we become so politically correct that we can't let this slide? @rmc: Do you honestly believe that Sqoot is sexist because of that one joke? That they look down on women, and thi…

I think the argument that it was a joke is hard to swallow. It doesn't even approach humor to me. A commenter on the apology got it right:

> From the original press release it sounded like you were just trying to throw a party with "hot waitresses serving drinks"

I'm not rmc and I won't answer for him, but I'll answer your queries from my own point of view.

Do I believe that they're sexist because of that one statement? Yes, I do, absolutely, but: does that imply that I think that "they look down on women, and think they shouldn't be working in the industry?" No, I don't believe their sexism is of that sort.

I think that most sexism in the US today is significantly more subtle than an outright looking down on women. In this case, its subtlety makes it all the more pernicious: it's harder to spot (even in one's self), it's harder to call out, it's easier to excuse. Saying women are trash will make you into a pariah, and no one will patronize your business. But what does a much smaller objectification of women, like this case, do? It has a chilling effect and it normalizes similar behavior; it contributes to the culture of sexism.

Are statements ("jokes") with such negative effects acceptable? It's hard to argue that they are, and so it seems to me that the argument in defense must be that the statement doesn't have those effects. And I think from the backlash, well written comments on the apology, etc--I think that's a steep hill to climb.

As for them personally: I don't think it should be judged that they're bad people. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't know. Are they sexist? I said they were, absolutely, because their behavior was, which they're culpable for. So they're sexist even if only partially and unconsciously. I'll give them that benefit of the doubt, so it's an offense, but it's a forgivable offense. There's a lot of sexism around. I've been guilty of sexist behavior in the past, and I'm sure I'll be guilty of it in the future.

That's what happens when it's ingrained in culture and remains normal behavior. And that's what happens when statements like this are allowed to slide. We do things without knowing their full weight, meaning, and impact. And then we learn, and we adjust. And most importantly, through adjusting our behavior we introspect to the causes, and so learn more about ourselves and our world, and what makes it all tick, so that we can eliminate that which doesn't live up to our ideals.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#22

What exactly was sexist about what they did? """Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you.""" Perhaps the quote is missing context, I found it here: http://philomousos.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/how-to-apologize.h... To me it doesn't even make sense. What is this 'Women:' bit about? If you discount the 'Women colon' I think if anything it offends programmers. Are we really so…

The "women:" bit is a listed perk.

   PERKS
   * Women (who will serve you beer)
The people at Sqoot really need to learn better writing - their listing on EventBrite was full of typos.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#23

What exactly was sexist about what they did? """Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you.""" Perhaps the quote is missing context, I found it here: http://philomousos.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/how-to-apologize.h... To me it doesn't even make sense. What is this 'Women:' bit about? If you discount the 'Women colon' I think if anything it offends programmers. Are we really so…

[deleted]

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#24
post #11

I don't undertand why people are intent on burying these guys for a poorly written flier with one mildly misogynistic joke in bad taste. The whole sanctimonious/lynch mob mentality of this reminds me a lot of reddit. There is so little of substance to be angry about here that people are now more interested in criticizing the quality of their apology. I think they've learned their lesson.

I would disagree: I think there is a point. The issue isn't necessarily the wording of the joke or semantics in the apology. It's this idea that the entire tech community is male and should be treated as such. It's not about this being politically correct or agreeable, it's about the attitude being insular. In my opinion, it would have been fine if they had said something similar, yet gender-neutral. Comments can be sexy without being sexist.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#26
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or there is a legimate problem here?

I personally don't think so. Everyone knows that Hackathons are widely male dominated. Yes, the comment was a little out of line in a professional content, but forgive them for trying to crack some humour and have some fun with their ad. Have we become so politically correct that we can't let this slide? @rmc: Do you honestly believe that Sqoot is sexist because of that one joke? That they look down on women, and thi…

Yes hackathons etc. are male dominated. No-one's saying they aren't.

The question is should they be this way, and if they should not be, what can we do to make things the way we want them to be like.

Things can be funny and sexist at the same time. Humour doesn't exclude any and all behaviour that someone wants it to. Sometimes the fact that it's funny is the sexist part, as in, the fact that 'humour' is used an excuse can be a symptom of sexism. It would be rare and mostly unacceptable for a bigwig businessman to do a black face show (à la an episode of Mad Men) and then claim "hey I was only being funny".

A thing might be funny for some people (e.g. straight male hackers), and be off-putting for others. If the others are the people who you think should be participating more (e.g. women hackers), then you might have found the reason why the world isn't the way we want it to be (i.e. this might be why hackathons are male dominated).

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#27

Second comment puts it perfectly: "Could you please explain how your "humor" was designed to call attention to the male-dominated world and was intended to be inclusive? How is inclusive to say that one of the perks were "women" and that one of your female event staff can fetch the boys some beer?" Claiming humorous irony is a very thin get-out clause in this kind of situation. You can't say "we were advertising our…

Women - did you know that on golf courses the attendant who serves you beer is commonly referred to as a beer girl? Did you know that it describes the attendant perfectly because she is in fact a girl who is serving beer. What if, the attendants at the hackathon were in fact an all lady staff?

she is in fact a girl who is serving beer.

I didn't think many golf courses could employ children.

Unless you're trying to belittle adult women by calling them childish names. This has been done many times, e.g. the old habit of white men calling black adult men (before & after slavery) "boy".

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#28

What exactly was sexist about what they did? """Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you.""" Perhaps the quote is missing context, I found it here: http://philomousos.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/how-to-apologize.h... To me it doesn't even make sense. What is this 'Women:' bit about? If you discount the 'Women colon' I think if anything it offends programmers. Are we really so…

> What exactly was sexist about what they did?

I came here looking for the standard, oblivious, "Hey, what's so sexist about being completely sexist?" comment.

As usual, HN did not disappoint.

So let me explain:

"Women" are not a perk. Women are humans with as much value to contribute to software development as men. To list them as a "perk" and to relegate them to a service role minimizes women in two ways beyond the obvious, gross objectification:

First, by saying "hey, all women are good for at this event is serving beer."

Second, and much more toxic, listing women as a perk reveals the unspoken understanding that heterosexual males are the intended audience for the event and that anyone else is secondary.

> I think if anything it offends programmers.

But yeah, by all means, muster up some indignation for all the poor, privileged, over-represented men who should be offended by this.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally don't think so. Everyone knows that Hackathons are widely male dominated. Yes, the comment was a little out of line in a professional content, but forgive them for trying to crack some humour and have some fun with their ad. Have we become so politically correct that we can't let this slide? @rmc: Do you honestly believe that Sqoot is sexist because of that one joke? That they look down on women, and thi…

I think the argument that it was a joke is hard to swallow. It doesn't even approach humor to me. A commenter on the apology got it right: > From the original press release it sounded like you were just trying to throw a party with "hot waitresses serving drinks" I'm not rmc and I won't answer for him, but I'll answer your queries from my own point of view. Do I believe that they're sexist because of that one stateme…

You do make a really good point, and I definitely do agree with you. I just feel like people overreacted, almost like they jumped on the holier-than-thou bandwagon. When you consider events like CES and that one Yahoo Hack Day which employed strippers, this isn't nearly as offensive.

Again, I definitely do see what you mean by it contributing to the culture of sexist, and that simply isn't acceptable. However, I feel like the sponsors, etc should have given Sqoot a chance to fix things before they resorted to the moves they did.

Re: We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

#30
People need to fucking lighten up. I would not have said what they said on the site, but it really was a stupid joke.

Everyone jumps to conclusions that we're all a bunch of misogynistic assholes. The problem is, you can't understand someone over the internet. You can't understand someone's apology or who they are or any of that. Worse, the majority of these people calling this issue out online would NEVER confront squoot in real life and raise these points. I make rude/crude/evil jokes to people all the time. Especially women friends of mine. But it's all in the spirit of being cocky/funny, and they love it.

Do I believe men and women were created equally? Yes. Do I believe a woman should be able to do whatever the fuck she wants in this world, be it fighting fires or curing AIDS? Yes. Do I feel bad that my sister is hurt by dickwad ex boyfriends out there who lower her self esteem. Yes. Do I have 3 little sisters and hope they all grow up to be strong and independent individuals? Yes. But there ARE certain gender roles in this world, influenced not just by our society but by many, many things. Testosterone? Yeah, I have a lot more than most women. Why? I have a penis. We're different. We joke differently, we think differently. We need to appreciate each other for who we are. Part of that is realizing each others faults as well. If a bunch of girls started a hackathon and listed one of the items as "$1 to the community bucket for whoever doesn't put the seat down", I think I'd laugh at that (maybe a bad example).

For the most part men and women are aware of their stereotypical flaws. Search for "Shit girls say" on youtube and admire the view count. I don't know a single girl who didn't completely piss her pants watching that. Sure, there are things that people should not say/do regarding women. For example, I'd beat the shit out of ANY guy I ever met who ever made even the slightest joke about rape.

But then there are other things, like the stuff Sqoot said on their event page. Psh, just a harmless JOKE. Pick your battles people.

Ugh. I'm ranting. This whole thing is just stupid though. Everyone needs to relax.

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