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Artificial Intelligence and Copyright: Request for comments

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111–120 of 321 posts

Re: Artificial Intelligence and Copyright: Request for comments

#111

Is there anyone willing to make the case for allowing generated works to have copyright protections? A lot of people here seem to mistake copyright for "right-to-sell" generated works. As it stands now, with no copyrights granted for AI generated works, anyone can sell any generated works unless some copyright holder believes it violates their copyright.

I don't have any strong opinion either way but here is, to me, the best form of the argument.

I think the clear analogy is copyright in photographs. There is no a priori reason to believe that copyright should apply to either photographs or model outputs. In the US the copyright act was extended by congress to allow for copyright in photographs. When this was challenged in Burrow-Giles Lithographic Co. v. Sarony, the argument was made that a photograph only mechanistically captures the world and doesn't involve authorship and therefore doesn't fall in the scope of copyright outlined in the constitution. The court disagreed and found there is sufficient authorship in photography through the choice of lighting, framing, camera settings, posing of subjects, etc.

Similarly, one could argue that there is authorship in the choice of topic, prompting, framing, etc when using a generative model. Look at some of the very complex prompts on Midjourney's example page. I've spent a fair amount of time trying to make images which are just as striking and failing. Just as in photography, I think an extension of copyright in this case would probably need to involve an act of congress rather than a development in case law (though I'm outside the US and not that familiar with the act and relevant case law).

If you haven't read the Zarya of the Dawn letter from the US copyright office, I think it's a very cogent explanation of where things currently stand. An artist generated images for a comic book. They get no copyright in the images because they didn't sufficiently have authorship in them. They do get copyright in the entire comic book which involves a particular selection and arrangement of images. https://www.copyright.gov/docs/zarya-of-the-dawn.pdf

Re: Artificial Intelligence and Copyright: Request for comments

#112
post #82
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion as a SWE who is dating a lawyer (joke, not a serious qualification but it does provide some insight): Generative models traverse and interpolate high dimensional state spaces. These state spaces are created from input data. I would argue people do the exact same thing - the first main difference is we can use novel inputs (e.g. we can use images or words to develop our music/temporal state spaces and vice…

I can appreciate how this line of thinking might be attractive. But IMO the human machine comparison doesn't lend itself much credence. We shouldn't assume that just because a human is allowed to do something, a machine is automatically allowed to do the same thing, too. I think some care should be taken when considering if we allow machines to have the same privileges as humans.

> We shouldn't assume that just because a human is allowed to do something, a machine is automatically allowed to do the same thing, too.

Generally speaking, even one machine can do something, it doesn't automatically mean another machine is allowed to do that.

For example you can drive car with a normal driving license, but not a truck. In some states you can own a pistol but no automatic rifle.

Re: Artificial Intelligence and Copyright: Request for comments

#113
post #82
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion as a SWE who is dating a lawyer (joke, not a serious qualification but it does provide some insight): Generative models traverse and interpolate high dimensional state spaces. These state spaces are created from input data. I would argue people do the exact same thing - the first main difference is we can use novel inputs (e.g. we can use images or words to develop our music/temporal state spaces and vice…

I can appreciate how this line of thinking might be attractive. But IMO the human machine comparison doesn't lend itself much credence. We shouldn't assume that just because a human is allowed to do something, a machine is automatically allowed to do the same thing, too. I think some care should be taken when considering if we allow machines to have the same privileges as humans.

copyright exists among other things to "promote the progress of science and useful arts".

Re: Artificial Intelligence and Copyright: Request for comments

#114
post #86
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who do you think should hold the copyright on the model weights, the copyright holders of the individual works comprising the dataset or the ones who assembled the dataset?

I don't think that model weights are copyrightable. They're a mathematical transformation of the source material. As a trivial example, applying gray = .299 r + .587 g + .114 b to a pixel is also a mathematical transformation but it doesn't create a new copyright. And thus, the model is a mathematical transformation and a derivative work of its source material. However I am also of the opinion that the resulting mode…

Indeed. Inputs are likely fair use but if you output Mickey Mouse, Disney will definitely he on you. I think that's the most sensible approach, as anyone can use a tool like a pencil to draw anything they want, doesn't mean that they'll get away with creating a drawing of Mickey and saying they own the copyright.

Re: Artificial Intelligence and Copyright: Request for comments

#115
post #106

I have never understood the fair use argument when it comes to training data. I publish a copyrighted article. Some LLM ingests it without permission, but since the output of that LLM is sufficiently different from my source article there is no violation. I publish copyrighted code. Some company decides to consume it without purchasing a license. The product they distribute is vastly different from my code itself, bu…

Well "consuming" the code means copying it word for word into your source tree. The compilation process does mangle it a bit but usually you can find identical function names and so on, and the courts have ruled that object code is equivalent to source code for purposes of copyright.

A different situation is you read a copyrighted news article and write the facts from it in your essay. Since the copyright of the news article only extends to creative expression and not factual information, there is no violation. For me, it is hard to tell what difference there is between this situation and an LLM identifying statistical patterns in the news article.

Re: Artificial Intelligence and Copyright: Request for comments

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used words very carefully. It depends on the level of human authorship. If you use a tool to correct some pixels thats directed by a human closely, no thats not a problem. If you remove large parts of the image with the ai erase fill, then you've given up authorship of those parts of the image. You could then go in and author changes to the work that you could further add to your copyright. But you would never chan…

You can "hand paint" in Photoshop, but you can also assemble collages composed of bits and pieces of other copyrighted works and create a result that is still copyrightable. Why is the latter currently legal in your opinion?

If you do not license the "bits and pieces" then the courts will find you in violation of their copyrights. Pretending AI is different is bizarre out-of-touch "but I'm so special" solipsism.

Re: Artificial Intelligence and Copyright: Request for comments

#117
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're passing inputs to a program, and your description completely omits the vast majority of that input: the creative output of an unknown number of other people , whose rights you are attempting to launder.

Thats nice and all. But it has nothing to do with whether something is copyrightable or not. Instead, something is copyrightable based on the amount of human input into the process. And it is very clear that there can be a lot of human input into AI image generation. Even though I will concede that going into midjourney and just typing in "Hot anime girl" isn't a lot of input and likely doesn't deserve copyright prot…

You've nailed the "creative" but not the "original" and you need both.

Re: Artificial Intelligence and Copyright: Request for comments

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing you're authoring is just your prompt. Apply for a copyright for it. The image or text generated in reply is generated by a computer with no more input from you than someone commissioning work using very precise words, and lacks human authorship.

That's the same as saying if I open paint and draw with the mouse my mouse movements should be copyrightable but not the resulting image...

It's not the same. If you make exactly the same mouse movements in paint 100 times, you will get 100 identical images. If you enter the exact same midjourney prompt 100 times, you'll probably get 100 different resulting images. The relationship between your authorship and the final image in the two cases is quite different.

Re: Artificial Intelligence and Copyright: Request for comments

#119
post #113
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can appreciate how this line of thinking might be attractive. But IMO the human machine comparison doesn't lend itself much credence. We shouldn't assume that just because a human is allowed to do something, a machine is automatically allowed to do the same thing, too. I think some care should be taken when considering if we allow machines to have the same privileges as humans.

copyright exists among other things to "promote the progress of science and useful arts".

That section is written in parallel verse, with copyright science, and patent useful arts. This sounds weird, now, but it's consistent with the use of the words at the time, which is the reverse of how they are used today, where paintings etc are considered art, and inventions are considered science. So, it's not that copyright exists to promote science and art (as we call them today) but only just the arts. Patents are for science. Authorship reflects copyright and invention reflects patent:

> Congress shall have the power... To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.”

Re: Artificial Intelligence and Copyright: Request for comments

#120

I believe we first need to answer the question of whether the copyright of the AI model’s source text or images affects the output. My opinion — and note I’m a software engineer, not a lawyer — is that an AI, being a statistical model and not generally intelligent, should not be allowed to disregard the copyright of its source material. This would, I think, require the AI’s creator to secure a license for all of its…

I personally have a really hard time finding any meaningful difference or distinction between "AI" and "lossy compression". Copyright and "lossy compression" are pretty easy to reason about. Model "building" is "compression". Model "use" is "decompression". Everything about these AI models seems to be about the "lossy" part, but "lossy" is just an adjective to the main show. It's very difficult to not conclude that c…

When you perform lossy compression, you feed it one file at a time, not every file in existence.
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