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When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

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Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#321

Post by pickingdinner »

ori_b wrote: post #76
gabereiser wrote: post #4

>Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work. You should be cognizant of when praise should be given (i.e. when is it appropriate) and in what context as mentioned in the article. That said, if you aren’t thanking and praising your colleagues for doing good wor…

> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.

It's tough to argue against better communication and kinder words, but having to care about someone's feelings (ego) when just trying to solve a problem is a problem in itself, and if you're a competent engineer, then it's the much harder problem.

I'd rather work with someone who says, "fuck, why did I do it this way," first. To that I'd say, "it's not the end of the world, let's get on this."

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#322

Post by thegrimmest »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #294
thegrimmest wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "your code sucks" is even more concise. It doesn't convey the same meaning at all though. One is a constructive criticism, one is not. Asking about reasoning for discarding alternative solutions is a perfectly standard part of any review process. It doesn't need to be further elongated and stylized to reduce directness. > "it's not my fault you feel bad about my abuse" Nowhere in my post did I justify abuse. Ad hom…

> One is a constructive criticism, one is not. The other one is accusatory in tone and puts the user in a defensive position. Even a simple tweak to say "did you consider this approach" is better than a direct "why did you do it this way/not that way"? So I argue the original form leans a bit away from constructive. > I'm defending a more direct style that communicates the same message, not a difference message all t…

> The other one is accusatory in tone

I think you need to revisit the definition. There is nothing accusatory about "Why didn't you do it this way?". It's simple question with a simple answer in the format: "Because ". Reading an accusatory tone from a perfectly neutral question, and then getting defensive about it, is exactly the sort of corporate culture that has no place in a productive environment.

ChatGPT gave the following answer:

> If I encountered the phrase "Why didn't you do it this way?" during a code review, I would likely assume a curious or neutral tone.

To avoid miscommunications, we should all be at least as sane as ChatGPT.

> has histories of being used to put down

The whole point is to interpret the words as they are written, and with common definitions from the dictionary. Not to read tones into them that may not exist in the culture of the speaker.

> assumption that once again comes out of nowhere

I was responding to your quote:

> You can't be negative 100% of the time

If you're receiving 100% negative feedback, the first place I'd look is internally. A review process is a solicitation for criticism. It's you who is saying that a who clearly, directly, professionally, and constructively criticizes work is "hostile".

> Then they shouldn't care about their co-worker's code quality unless they are constantly asked to fix it

They should care when they are asked to review it, since that's the point of a review process.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#323

Post by johnnyanmac »

adionionio wrote: post #320
johnnyanmac wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which part of "find something about their approach that you liked " is not being understood here? Have you only seen horrible code throughout your career? Has every single thing you ever reviewed rated a 0/10 in your book? Avoid telling lies by not lying.

Sometimes I am taken aback to realize how different people can be. It seems that you would appreciate it if other people treated you this way. Maybe most people would agree. I, however, find the behavior you endorse almost inhumanly manipulative. The notion that my coworkers would hold me in such low regard that they think I need this kind of coddling is disturbing. I'd take shouted insults over this condescension an…

>It seems that you would appreciate it if other people treated you this way.

by appreciating the work I do? It's not perfect and I of course hate a good amount of code I write, but I'm so confused how people can treat a compliment as "coddling". What's wrong with taking pride in your craft every once in a while?

Are we confused about frequency? No, I am fine with 9/10 of my commits having a "LGTM" and leaving it at that. Not ever task needs praise.

But you surely understand that there's a difference in praises and insults. I'm fine 10% of the time being complimented. I'm not fine 10% of the time being insulted. If you can't get your point across without calling my (or your) person into question, we have much bigger issues at play.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#325

Post by johnnyanmac »

thegrimmest wrote: post #322
johnnyanmac wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One is a constructive criticism, one is not. The other one is accusatory in tone and puts the user in a defensive position. Even a simple tweak to say "did you consider this approach" is better than a direct "why did you do it this way/not that way"? So I argue the original form leans a bit away from constructive. > I'm defending a more direct style that communicates the same message, not a difference message all t…

> The other one is accusatory in tone I think you need to revisit the definition. There is nothing accusatory about "Why didn't you do it this way?". It's simple question with a simple answer in the format: "Because ". Reading an accusatory tone from a perfectly neutral question, and then getting defensive about it, is exactly the sort of corporate culture that has no place in a productive environment. ChatGPT gave t…

>I think you need to revisit the definition. There is nothing accusatory about "Why didn't you do it this way?"

okay:

>indicating or suggesting that one believes a person has done something wrong.

I believe the definition is apt here. You believe something is done wrong so you open it up with an accusation of not doing it "this way". It's almost textbook definition. There could be room for context, but in a vacuum it's not best to open up your review with "why didn't you X?". You should have established X while triaging the task.

>ChatGPT gave the following answer:

If there's one thing I'm not going to rely on an AI for, it's for human tone. Even advanced sci-fi sentient android have the stereotype of not capturing tone properly. So there's little point in trusting 2023 web scraping.

It says it's a neutral tone because somewhere in its training data there is a person who assumed a neutral tone. Which in and of itself is subjective. It's based on the AI's limited experience on the internet, and the Internet is also infamously horrible at conveying tone.

back in reality, I've been asked "why" so many times in an accusatory tone IRL that it's always going to put me on the defensive. "Why are you here?", "Why is this not done?", "Why are you late to this meeting?". It's not a good idea in general to do a cold open with that.

>If you're receiving 100% negative feedback, the first place I'd look is internally.

If you get negative feedback from everyone, sure

If you get 100% negative feedback from a few specific persons, then it's probably personal. Especially if those few people are not your direct managers. Something we seem to both agree on is that we shouldn't take things personally in the workplace, but there often is a few people like that no matter where you go.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#326

Post by kamikaz1k »

madeofpalk wrote: post #143
agloe_dreams wrote: post #5

I disagree with the angle on this about asking and how to go about things but mostly because complimenting in context is helpful. When someone does great work, tell everyone, not just their manager. Do it in public and clearly in standups after they talk about what they did last day/week. "I just want to mention, that work that Joe did on that module is fantastic, thanks!" It is so easy to be a force for good. Being…

Not sure about this advice in general. I get quite uncomfortable if I receive praise or compliments in general, and in a group setting is even worse. I find it embarrassing and awkward. Im not saying “never give praise in public”. But, you know, read the room. As always, especially with social interactions, context is key! Know the people you’re talking with!

Can you share more about what makes it awkward?

Sometimes it’s just that people don’t know the template for responding. Like, for example just saying “thank you” and smile, or heart reacji if on slack or something.

But I don’t want to assume in your case.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#327

Post by gabereiser »

Spooky23 wrote: post #260
gabereiser wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes you just want someone to acknowledge the hard effort you put into it and share the rejoice that it’s over/complete.

Totally agree. You just need to be mindful of context. I’m in a senior director role. Part of that is that I need to be cognizant of what I say and how I say it, because Spooky23 is talking, but “corporate officer guy” is who the audience hears. One early mistake that I made was recognizing a colleague who was essential to my aspect of delivering a key project. Which was true. But because of how I said it and what I…

Similarly had that experience as well as a director. I learned to give praise to the team and individually prior to doing any sort of public showing. I try to offer up equal praise across the team to reinforce it was a team effort. To prove that it’s not favorites or one’s contribution didn’t outweigh the others’

You can’t walk on eggshells but you can elevate your empathy and awareness - choosing the right words is a skill.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#328

Post by sixstringtheory »

eweise wrote: post #157
ori_b wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.

I do. Having worked with so many engineers with almost no social skills, I think there's a lot of room for improvement in their communication style. "Why didn't you do it this way?" is aggressive and critical. "have you thought about this approach?" makes them feel like you have their back and are trying to help. I agree there's not a huge need to the "I really liked how you tackled this" part but even never praising…

Weird, I perceive these the opposite of how you do.

"Why didn't you do it this way?" I trust that you considered many alternatives. Can you tell me your thoughts about the decision you arrived at?

“have you thought about this approach?” You probably couldn’t imagine this possibility, let me do it for you. Checkmate!

I can also see how they could each be interpreted in the opposite directions.

I’m betting it’s more about the contextual body language and tone they’re delivered with than the words/sentences themselves that matters, which I just don’t see being that different once you look behind them to see the gist of the message.

That’s the double edged sword of text-only communication: you can choose to interpret everything charitably, but you can also infer a condescending tone even if it wasn’t intended.

Expecting people to wordsmith to your individual taste is just asking for otherwise fine coworkers to be mind readers.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#329

Post by sopooneo »

eweise wrote: post #157
ori_b wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.

I do. Having worked with so many engineers with almost no social skills, I think there's a lot of room for improvement in their communication style. "Why didn't you do it this way?" is aggressive and critical. "have you thought about this approach?" makes them feel like you have their back and are trying to help. I agree there's not a huge need to the "I really liked how you tackled this" part but even never praising…

I have personally switched my default communication style to the "have you thought about this approach?" style because I found it worked better with most people. Still, for me, I dislike it. Coming from a lot of people, I find it not what they really mean, which puts me on edge.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#330

Post by thegrimmest »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #325
thegrimmest wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other one is accusatory in tone I think you need to revisit the definition. There is nothing accusatory about "Why didn't you do it this way?". It's simple question with a simple answer in the format: "Because ". Reading an accusatory tone from a perfectly neutral question, and then getting defensive about it, is exactly the sort of corporate culture that has no place in a productive environment. ChatGPT gave t…

>I think you need to revisit the definition. There is nothing accusatory about "Why didn't you do it this way?" okay: >indicating or suggesting that one believes a person has done something wrong. I believe the definition is apt here. You believe something is done wrong so you open it up with an accusation of not doing it "this way". It's almost textbook definition. There could be room for context, but in a vacuum it…

> You believe something is done wrong so you open it up with an accusation

Nowhere is this belief stated in the text. It's simply not what the words mean. It is being fabricated entirely in your mind. The only appropriate thing to infer from a question is that the asker wants to know the answer.

> I've been asked "why" so many times in an accusatory tone IRL that it's always going to put me on the defensive.

The onus is on you to cope with that. Don't transfer this burden to everyone you communicate with. It's unprofessional.

> If there's one thing I'm not going to rely on an AI for, it's for human tone.

Sentiment analysis is actually something LLMs excel at.

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