How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s • Hacker News Board

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#211

Post by 1-6 » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 3:57 PM UTC

1-6 wrote: post #199

South Korea is hostile for new families. Unless you were born to rich parents, have a decent education with a good job (that's with a Multi-national or a Chaebol), own property in Seoul, find a partner, and survive the probability of divorce, having a child is impossible--let alone having two to meet the population replacement rate. What's the solution?

One issue is that there are many who are not willing to live normal lives and there's this constant battle of trying to outdo one another. People are trying to please even mere strangers standing next to them at the crosswalk. Living mediocre is bad and there's a negative stigma associated to being middle to lower class.

If your apartment isn't a Prugio or Lotte Castle and live in Bangbae; If your car isn't a AMG, BMW M, or at least a Genesis; If your bag isn't a Hermes or a LV; If your morning routine doesn't include an Ah-Ah (Ice Americano); If your baby stroller isn't a Yoyo; If your watch isn't an Apple Watch or Omega; If your shoes aren't won through a Nike Raffle and have high resale; If your road bike riding through Hangang isn't a Pinarello; You'll be forever mediocre.

My solution? Spread the population apart such that people will stop comparing themselves with one another. There are plenty of places outside of Seoul where there's fiber internet, good schools that are empty (better teacher to student ratio), and cheap land. People should be more willing to embrace the countryside (shigol) and stop thinking it's bad or without opportunity. I hope there will be more remote jobs that pay well to incentivise new families to go outward. Seoul needs some rest!

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#212

Post by FirmwareBurner » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

danuker wrote: post #205

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Infinite growth as demanded by capitalism is not physically possible. If they wouldn't hit "the wall" now, they would hit it anyway in the near future. Maybe South Korea's situation should give all ageing rich developed nations something to reflect on and start making preparations for the upcoming demographic plateau/collapse and reform stuff like welfare/pension systems, instead of blindly kicking the can do…

The wall manifests as prices. When you barely make ends meet in spite of being a skilled worker, something is off.

"The wall" is already manifesting in Europe as well, in terms of CoL and real estate prices[1] where even skilled workers can't afford a decent home anymore or build any wealth after paying the inflated rents from their stagnating wages. You either inherit something from your parents or are screwed if you don't get a top FAANG/F500 job out of university. Working for small or average companies doesn't cut it anymore.

It feels like the society collectively decided "no more new building" to make housing scarce and inflate up property prices of existing owners at the expense of the newcomers.

Seems like a common theme among the developed world from the Americas all the way to AU-NZ.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mavRpBC2dA8

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#213

Post by yoyohello13 » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

neom wrote: post #202

My wife and I have opted not to have children for reasons* and it's really sad how the conversation with the in-laws has moved from "you should have children because children" to "you need to have children because korea needs you to have children", and it's not just a passing comment here and there, the campaign to get us to single handedly re-populate SK is intense and sustained. I wonder if other couples are experi…

My wife and I have definitely noticed a trend of “you’re not doing your civic duty” and we don’t even live in SK.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#214

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

gottorf wrote: post #201

1-6 wrote: post #199

South Korea is hostile for new families. Unless you were born to rich parents, have a decent education with a good job (that's with a Multi-national or a Chaebol), own property in Seoul, find a partner, and survive the probability of divorce, having a child is impossible--let alone having two to meet the population replacement rate. What's the solution?

To add some color: South Korea is somewhere between the size of Kentucky and Indiana (the 37th and 38th largest states), yet has over 51 million people, almost 15 million more than California, the most populous state. It has very few natural resources to speak of, and is roughly two-thirds mountainous, meaning most of the population is condensed in the few flat areas. In some ways, it's natural that the fertility rat…

[deleted]

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#215

Post by sapa777 » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

gottorf wrote: post #201

1-6 wrote: post #199

South Korea is hostile for new families. Unless you were born to rich parents, have a decent education with a good job (that's with a Multi-national or a Chaebol), own property in Seoul, find a partner, and survive the probability of divorce, having a child is impossible--let alone having two to meet the population replacement rate. What's the solution?

To add some color: South Korea is somewhere between the size of Kentucky and Indiana (the 37th and 38th largest states), yet has over 51 million people, almost 15 million more than California, the most populous state. It has very few natural resources to speak of, and is roughly two-thirds mountainous, meaning most of the population is condensed in the few flat areas. In some ways, it's natural that the fertility rat…

As impressive as it sounds to say South Korea developed successfully on its own, did it? Did the US play any hand in its development? I mean obviously South Korea would not exist had it not been for the US' help in the war. But even afterwards, is there an sort of advantage South Korea had by having the US (the leading super power at the time) help?

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#216

Post by neaden » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 4:05 PM UTC

While South Korea has the largest fertility rate fall it's important that they are just the most extreme of many countries. East Asian countries in general like China and Japan have been having a big fall, and many European countries are as well. France has the highest birthrate of any European country at 1.84 but even that is below replacement rate.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#217

Post by mschuster91 » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 4:05 PM UTC

1-6 wrote: post #211

1-6 wrote: post #199

South Korea is hostile for new families. Unless you were born to rich parents, have a decent education with a good job (that's with a Multi-national or a Chaebol), own property in Seoul, find a partner, and survive the probability of divorce, having a child is impossible--let alone having two to meet the population replacement rate. What's the solution?

One issue is that there are many who are not willing to live normal lives and there's this constant battle of trying to outdo one another. People are trying to please even mere strangers standing next to them at the crosswalk. Living mediocre is bad and there's a negative stigma associated to being middle to lower class. If your apartment isn't a Prugio or Lotte Castle and live in Bangbae; If your car isn't a AMG, BM…

> My solution? Spread the population apart such that people will stop comparing themselves with one another.

Small villages where everyone knows each other can be just as bad regarding bullying and talking behind one's backs, although I do agree - especially as some here in Western countries keep advocating for megacities and accelerating rural flight because of resource usage efficiency - that too dense populations are a hotbed of all kinds of social issues.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#218

Post by fsloth » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

neom wrote: post #202

My wife and I have opted not to have children for reasons* and it's really sad how the conversation with the in-laws has moved from "you should have children because children" to "you need to have children because korea needs you to have children", and it's not just a passing comment here and there, the campaign to get us to single handedly re-populate SK is intense and sustained. I wonder if other couples are experi…

If you really want to have children but are worried about climate change and cost - may I suggest you look moving to norhern europe. The region will survive most predicted outcomes and childcare is heavily state subsidized. That is if you would love to have a family but can’t for the stated reasons. It’s totally fine not to want children as personal choice without any rationalization as well!

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#219

Post by rendang » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 4:07 PM UTC

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #203

gottorf wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add some color: South Korea is somewhere between the size of Kentucky and Indiana (the 37th and 38th largest states), yet has over 51 million people, almost 15 million more than California, the most populous state. It has very few natural resources to speak of, and is roughly two-thirds mountainous, meaning most of the population is condensed in the few flat areas. In some ways, it's natural that the fertility rat…

Indeed. Infinite growth as demanded by capitalism is not physically possible. If they wouldn't hit "the wall" now, they would hit it anyway in the near future. Maybe South Korea's situation should give all ageing rich developed nations something to reflect on and start making preparations for the upcoming demographic plateau/collapse and reform stuff like welfare/pension systems, instead of blindly kicking the can do…

You seem to be conflating economic growth with population growth. Also the concern is not that Korea's population is failing to grow, it's that it's failing to stabilize and will soon shrink significantly.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#220

Post by Daishiman » Thu, Aug 31, 2023, 4:07 PM UTC

Hitton wrote: post #210

neom wrote: post #202

My wife and I have opted not to have children for reasons* and it's really sad how the conversation with the in-laws has moved from "you should have children because children" to "you need to have children because korea needs you to have children", and it's not just a passing comment here and there, the campaign to get us to single handedly re-populate SK is intense and sustained. I wonder if other couples are experi…

I wouldn't worry to much about climate change, humanity overcame bigger problems. And if your in-laws want children so much, just tell them your concerns, they might be willing to chip in financially.

I think you are seriously underestimating the impacts that worldwide crop failures in the next 20 years are going to have as far as global human catastrophes go.