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Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

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Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#371

Post by avgcorrection »

Tainnor wrote: post #337
ghaff wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially reveal their gender and marital status, which they may not want to do." I'm always a bit surprised when I see some e.g. tech conferences still insisting on title as a mandatory field (or really asking at all). It's not just the gender and the marital status but some people attach a lot of significance to all manner…

At least in Germany, titles are still rather important. I agree that it's silly but if you have a PhD you're very likely to put "Dr." on your doorbell name plate.

A doorbell I can understand;[1] it's your own home. But the requirements might be lower if you are signing up for some Lidl customer benefit club.

[1] Well, personally I think that's silly too. But it's a question of degree.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#372

Post by alistairSH »

mastax wrote: post #292
zamalek wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Just have a single "name field" and maybe preferred name, which is not the same." > This is the way to go. Agreed. Does anyone know of any reason to care about first/last, apart from it being part of My First SQL Database and sating our inner desire to create pointless taxonomies?

Interfacing with external systems which require first/last, I suppose.

This. Many US government agencies (and therefore their forms and APIs) use FML.

So, our software has a whole pile of names... FML, preferred, mailing, formal, sort name, and probably a few others I'm forgetting. It's a mess.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#373

Post by nicbou »

generic92034 wrote: post #301
shafyy wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which country is that? And how would you address a person called Martina Müller in a written document? "Sehr geehrte Müller?" Or is it not a German-speaking country you're referring to?

Is it not a similar issue in the US or UK? In a formal setting, e. g. communication from a company representative to an unknown (except for the name) representative from a different company, I would be using "Dear Ms./Mr. ". If that is the correct way (please let me know!) you have to commit to one of only two genders and sometimes also the last name is a guess.

You could say Dear Firstname Lastname without being off.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#374

Post by ghaff »

alexvitkov wrote: post #361
ghaff wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially reveal their gender and marital status, which they may not want to do." I'm always a bit surprised when I see some e.g. tech conferences still insisting on title as a mandatory field (or really asking at all). It's not just the gender and the marital status but some people attach a lot of significance to all manner…

If you plan to only do English forever that's acceptable, but there's _a lot_ of languages where you need to know someone's gender to be able to use their name in a sentence. Weird thing to look over in a thread about internationalization

You can certainly make titles optional or just part of a name field although, in the case of some titles like Dr., that still doesn't give you what you supposedly need anyway. Personally, if I had a form that didn't need title information for some reason, it's probably a minefield I would just bypass even if there are potential edge cases.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#375

Post by usrusr »

weinzierl wrote: post #334
usrusr wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany used to be extremely restrictive about the set of character sequences that were allowed as given names. Some of that is probably still in place. When everybody was called Fritz or Hans or Gundula plus some word describing an ancestor's profession (it's all following the pattern of Smith and Miller), the order didn't really matter and that freedom was liberally abused: contexts that use the formal as identifie…

When I was a child in Bavaria I was often called by house name + given name, in that order, especially by the elderly. The house name is different from the family name which appears in official documents like the birth certificate. Another difference between northern and southern Germany is the Münchner-Du and the Hamburger-Sie. In standard German we use the formal pronoun Sie with the last name in formal situations…

Aren't those name/pronoun mismatches in both cases a clear expression of status gradient? "I consider you close but I certainly don't consider you a peer". I suppose that neither of those drivers would reply in similar form. (though far less unlikely in the munich variant I think). An exception would be a recurring pattern of ironically using the family name like a nickname in youth language. Perhaps male only youth language, but very much an entirely different thing from those Munich/Hamburg oddities.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#376

Post by nicbou »

kuschku wrote: post #282
shafyy wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which country is that? And how would you address a person called Martina Müller in a written document? "Sehr geehrte Müller?" Or is it not a German-speaking country you're referring to?

It turns out the people who want to be addressed by neutral gender usually don't care as much about Siezen and honorifics, so the systems I built usually just go with "Hallo" or "Moin". I even had one system which would go with "Sehr geehrte/r" for people who had chosen a title or set their language preference to "Deutsch (Sie)" and with "Moin" for everyone else.

Moin is not a good way to address your Ausländerbehörde case worker though. I'd go for the more disarming Hallöchen Popöchen.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#377

Post by makeitdouble »

alexvitkov wrote: post #361
ghaff wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially reveal their gender and marital status, which they may not want to do." I'm always a bit surprised when I see some e.g. tech conferences still insisting on title as a mandatory field (or really asking at all). It's not just the gender and the marital status but some people attach a lot of significance to all manner…

If you plan to only do English forever that's acceptable, but there's _a lot_ of languages where you need to know someone's gender to be able to use their name in a sentence. Weird thing to look over in a thread about internationalization

I'd assume in these languages you can get away with either not using the name, or going for a neutral form (same as when you don't know who you're speaking to)

French has that gendered structure too, with workarounds to manage uncertainty.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#378

Post by angrygoat »

ghaff wrote: post #335
johneth wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GOV.UK design system[1] agrees with you: > "Use single or multiple fields depending on your user’s needs. Not everyone’s name fits the first-name, last-name format. Using multiple name fields mean there’s more risk that a person’s name will not fit the format you’ve chosen and that it is entered incorrectly." and > "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially…

>> "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially reveal their gender and marital status, which they may not want to do." I'm always a bit surprised when I see some e.g. tech conferences still insisting on title as a mandatory field (or really asking at all). It's not just the gender and the marital status but some people attach a lot of significance to all manner…

Just to add (as clergy myself) that clerical titles are in current use, are not limited to one faith tradition, and space ought to be allowed for them.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#379

Post by gottorf »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #223
muzani wrote: post #67

Just have a single "name field" and maybe preferred name, which is not the same. The family/given name format doesn't make much sense here. Indian name: Sathiavelllu Arunachalam, known as SA or Seth SE Asian ethnic Chinese names: Harry Lee Kuan Yew, (English name) (Surname) (Given name). Hated the name Harry and got it removed, though many Chinese are referred to by an English name. Indonesian name: Fatimah Azzahra (…

Many Indonesian Javanese people only have a single name. It is more rare these days, but certainly not zero, or only old people who don't use computer. I've met people in their 20s with a single name. Also, in (South) Korea, depending upon the person's preference, they may choose to do family name first or last. It's crazy. I don't know why. (Can someone explain it to me?) As a result, most will write their romanized…

> Also, in (South) Korea, depending upon the person's preference, they may choose to do family name first or last. It's crazy. I don't know why. (Can someone explain it to me?)

In Korean, the family name comes first, then the given name. (There are no middle names.) It is almost always a single-character surname (Kim, Lee, etc.) and a two-character given name, though there are exceptions, with a small minority of surnames being two characters, and a small minority of given names being one character.

Romanization rules have changed over the years. The first president of the modern Republic of Korea was Syngman Rhee, with his given name Syngman first (with no spaces or hyphens) and family name Rhee last. Then take Park Chung Hee, the third president, in office in the 60s and 70s; his family name is Park, and his given name is Chung Hee. A few presidents later, you have Roh Tae-woo, in office around the 90s, with family name Roh and given name Tae-woo; notice the hyphenation. The current president is Yoon Suk Yeul, back to not having a hyphen to join the two characters of his given name.

Sometimes it depends on when it was that someone was first issued a passport, because the government is loathe to change the way someone's romanized name is spelled after the first issuance.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#380

Post by nicbou »

onionisafruit wrote: post #338
nicbou wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a bit trickier in my case because it was an English tool to fill a German form. There was the awkward issue of "Frau Dr." and "Herr Dr." being the same thing in the English dropdown. The other issue is that the full name is used in the address, but only the last name in the greeting. There are no apartment numbers in Germany, so the name in the address must match the name on the mailbox. There can also be a lo…

Having not been in this position myself, my instinct is to drop the greeting line in emails altogether. I’m sure you considered that and had a good reason not to drop it.

I personally find it somewhat rude, unless it's a follow up message or someone I know very well.

To give a bit of context I help people as a courtesy when the information on my website does not suffice. If readers can't be arsed to say hello before they ask for a few minutes of my time, I quietly wonder who raised them. Imagine walking up to a retail employee and blurting out "I need printer paper" without saying "hello" or "excuse me".

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